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Posted By Topic: The Imaam Al-Faqeeh Ibn Uthaymeen: On Studying with the Innovators.

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HassanAs-Somali
26-11-2002 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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The Imaam Al-Faqeeh Allaamah Shaykh Ibn Uthaymeen said:

?Nothing is to be taken from a person of innovation, even if it is that which is not related to their Bid?ah. For example, if we found a man who is an innovator but he is good with the Arabic language, Balaagah (Art of composition), Sarf (Morphology) and grammar, do we sit with him and take this knowledge that he possesses or do we abandon him?
We do not sit with him (as sitting with him) would result in two harmful (effects).
The first Mafsadah (harmful effect) is that he will be fooled by himself and he will believe that he is upon the truth.
The second Mafsadah is that the people will be fooled by him due to the students of knowledge coming to and learning from him. And the common folk do not differentiate between the ilm of grammar and the ilm of Aqeedah. So that is why we hold that it is not allowed to sit with an innovator in totality, even if they could not find Arabic, Grammar and Sarf except with him.?


http://www.salafitalk.net/st/uploads/UthaiminNotSittingWithAhlulHawa.ram
Link posted by the brother Abu Abdillaah.
وقال شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية:
لا عيب على من أظهر مذهب السلف وانتسب إليه واعتزى إليه بل يجب قبول ذلك منه بالاتفاق فإن مذهب السلف لا يكون إلا حقا
مجموع الفتاوى 4/ 149

This message was edited by HassanAs-Somali on 11-26-02 @ 2:33 AM

HassanAs-Somali
28-11-2002 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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..--=ahamdulillaah was. salaatu was. salaamu `alaa rasoolillaah.=--..
wa. ba`ad
-----\|/-----


We asked the Shaykh Allaamah Ubaid Al-Jabiri this question (Ruling on studying with the innovators) on the 25/11/2002, during a Q&A session. Inshaa Allaah the Jawaab will be posted asap.

وقال شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية:
لا عيب على من أظهر مذهب السلف وانتسب إليه واعتزى إليه بل يجب قبول ذلك منه بالاتفاق فإن مذهب السلف لا يكون إلا حقا
مجموع الفتاوى 4/ 149

This message was edited by HassanAs-Somali on 11-28-02 @ 4:03 AM

al-haddul-faasil
29-11-2002 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Assalaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullaahi wa Barakaatahu

quote:
     ?The Imaams (who are people of) ijtihaad have agreed that it is not permissible to seek knowledge with the innovators and they used to say that Fornication is from the major sins but it is lesser than a person asking an innovator about his religion.?

Fataawa A'imatul Muslimeen bi qat'il lisaanil mubtadi'een 131.  (Taken from) Mawqif Ahlis Sunnah 2/689.

This message was edited by al-haddul-faasil on 11-29-02 @ 3:13 AM

faruq.as-salafi
29-11-2002 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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As-Salaamu' Alaikum.

Suphan'Allah,
Is the above kalaam taken from Ibn Uthaymeen as well? I do not know of the author of Mawqif Ahlis Sunnah.

Baarak-Allaahu Feekum - wa sal-Allaahu wa-sallam 'alaa Nabiyyinaa Muhammad,
was-Salaam 'alaykum wa-Rahmatullaahe wa-Barakaatuh.

Abu' Salafi'ayn
-From As-Salafiyoon in Columbus-

al-haddul-faasil
29-11-2002 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Ibraheem Ruhayli is the author Mawqif Ahlis sunnah.
Here he quotes the Fatwa of some of the scholars of the past from Shaam and Magrib.

  

AbdurRahmanAkil
29-11-2002 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Does this ruling by Shaykh Ibn Uthaymeen and Shaykh Ubaid al Jabiri refer to the innovator upon which the proof has been established or does this ruling apply to Ahl Bid'ah in general?

sayfullaah
29-11-2002 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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For an understanding of what the word Ahl ul Bid'ah means look to the fatwa posted by our noble brother Amjad Rafeeq may Allaah preserve him.



Summarised words of Imaam ash-Shaatibee in al-I'tisaam (taken from a Mukhtasir)


إن لفظ ((أهل الأهواءِ)) وعبارة ((أهل البدع)) إنما تطلق  حقيقة على الذين ابتدعوها، وقدموا فيها شريعة الهوى بالاستنباط والنصر لها، والاستدلال على صحتها في زعمهم، كلفظ ((أهل السنة)) إنما يطلق على ناصريها، وعلى من استنبط على وفقها، والحامين لذمارها.

فلا يطلق على العوام لفظ ((أهل الأهواء)) حتى يخوضوا بأنظارهم فيها ويحسنوا بنظرهم ويقبحوا. وعند ذلك يتعين للفظ أهل الأهواء وأهل البدع مدلول واحد، وهو أنه: من انتصب للابتداع ولترجيحه على غيره. وأما أهل الغفلة عن ذلك والسالكون سبل رؤسائهم بمجرد التقليد من غير نظر فلا.

فحقيقة المسألة أنها تحتوي على قسمين: مبتدع ومقتد به. فالمقتدي به كأنه لم يدخل في العبارة بمجرد الاقتداء لأنه في حكم المتبع، والمبتدع هو المخترع، أو المستدل على صحة ذلك الاختراع، وسواءٌ علينا أكان ذلك الاستدلال من قبيل الخاص بالنظر في العلم، أو كان من قبيل الاستدلال العامي، فإن اللّه سبحانه ذم أقواماً قالوا: {إنَّا وجدْنا آباءَنا علَى أُمَّةٍ وَإنَّا عَلَى آثَارِهِمْ مُهْتَدَونَ} فكأنهم استدلوا إلى دليل جُمْلِىّ، وهو الآباءُ إذ كانوا عندهم من أهل العقل، وقد كانوا على هذا الدين، وليس إلا لأنه صواب، فنحن عليه، لأنه لو كان خطأُ لما ذهبوا إليه.

وهو نظير من يستدل على صحة البدعة بعمل الشيوخ ومن يشار إليه بالصلاح، ولا ينظر إلى كونه من أهل الاجتهاد في الشريعة أو من أهل التقليد، ولا كونه يعمل بعلم أو بجهل. ولكن مثل هذا يعد استدلالاً في الجملة من حيث جعل عمدة في اتباع الهوى واطَّراح ما سواه، فمن أخذ به فهو آخذ بالبدعة بدليل مثله، ودخل في مسمى أهل الابتداع، إذ كان من حق من كان هذا سبيله أن ينظر في الحق إن جاءَه، ويبحث ويتأنى ويسأل حتى يتبين له فيتبعه، أو الباطل فيجتنبه. ولذلك قال تعالى ردّاً على المحتجين بما تقدم: {قُلْ أوَلَوْا جِئْتُكُمْ بِأهْدَى مِمَّا وجدْتُمْ عليْهِ آبَاءَكُمْ؟} وفي الآية الأُخرى: {وإذا قِيلَ لهُمُ: اتَّبِعُوا ما أنْزَل اللّهُ. قالوا: بَلْ نَتَّبِعُ ما ألْفَيْنا عليْهِ آباءَنا} فقال تعالى: {أوَلَوْ كان آباؤُهُمْ لاَ يعْقِلون شيئاً وَلاَ يَهْتدُون؟} وفي الآية الأُخرى {أوَلَوْ كان الشَّيْطانُ يَدْعُوهُمْ إلَى عذابِ السَّعِيرِ} وأمثال ذلك كثير.

وعلامة من هذا شأْنه أن يرد خلاف مذهبه بما عليه من شبهة دليل تفصيلي أو إجمالي، ويتعصب لما هو عليه غير ملتفت إلى غيره، وهو عين اتباع الهوى. فهو المذموم حقاً. وعليه يحصل الإثم، فإن من كان مسترشداً مال إلى الحق حيث وجده ولم يرده، وهو المعتاد في طالب الحق. ولذلك بادر المحققون إلى اتباع رسول اللّه  حين تبين لهم الحق


Translation to follow inshaa`Allaah.

Part of the saying of ash-Shaatibee (concerning the common people)


.-=abu.iyaad=-.
--as.salafi--


Men are known by the truth, the truth is not known by way of men.

This message was edited by Admin on 11-29-02 @ 6:02 PM

al-haddul-faasil
30-11-2002 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Muhammed Ibn Sireen said:
quote:
They never used to ask about the chain of narration (isnaad) but when the Fitnah came they would say: Name for us your men, so they used to look to Ahlus sunnah and accept their hadeeth and look to Ahlul bid'ah and not accept their hadeeth.


Intro. Saheeh Muslim 1/15.

[format error updated by admin]

This message was edited by Admin on 11-30-02 @ 12:50 PM

uk_Salafi
30-11-2002 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Shaykh Ubayd al-Jaabiree:
The ruling on seeking ilm with the innovators



Hudhayfah ibn al-Yamaan radiallaahu 'anhu said. "The people used to ask the Messenger of Allaah sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam about the good, but I used to ask him about the evil for fear that it would overtake me ..."

This message was edited by uk_Salafi on 11-30-02 @ 9:41 PM


HassanAs-Somali
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The following question was put to The Shaykh Allaamah Ubaid Ibn Abdillaah Al-Jabiri on 25/11/2002.


What is the ruling on seeking knowledge with the innovators and is this permissible in any circumstances?



The people of innovation are two groups:
The First: Those who call to their innovation and affirm this in their books and speech, privately and openly, the like of Ikhwaan ul Muslimoon, Tableegh. Surooriyyah Qutubiyyah and other than them, these are called the Du?aat to Bid?ah, so it is obligatory to separate and be wary of them and knowledge is not to be taken from them except in the state of necessity and (at the same time) whilst being cautious.

The Second: The innovators who do not call to their Bid?ah. Their affair is simpler as their innovation is upon themselves. In the two authentic collections (Bukhaari and Muslim) and other than them from the books of hadeeth, there are narrations reported by way of the Mubtadi?ah, (meaning) in their chain of narrations are innovators.
But the people of hadeeth narrated them as this does not support their Bid?ah.


The tape recording is found in the above link.

وقال شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية:
لا عيب على من أظهر مذهب السلف وانتسب إليه واعتزى إليه بل يجب قبول ذلك منه بالاتفاق فإن مذهب السلف لا يكون إلا حقا
مجموع الفتاوى 4/ 149

amr.basheer
01-12-2002 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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I want to bring a point to clarify that there are differences in the ruling between accepting a riwaayah [narration] and studying with somebody which was the issue titled by our noble brother hassan.

1]Regarding narrations

The shahaadah [witness] and riwaayah [narrating hadeeth] are similar in their ruling with ahl us-sunnah regarding acceptance.
Some points to do with accepting narrations are;
-A narration of an innovator who has fallen into major kufr is not accepted including the one who believes it is halal for him to lie to aid his hizb or madhab or party and their leaders [like most of the rawaafidh do]. If takfeer is not established upon the second type of individual, then his narration is rejected anyway for being a liar.
-As for the innovator who does not fall in to major kufr some scholars will accept him [like aboo yusuf, al-izz bin abd us-salam and ahmed shaakir and al-albaanee] with the general requirements for a narrator being fulfilled, and some will reject him outright [like ibn sireen, as quoted by the brother previously] but the majority will accept his narration but making it conditional that he cannot be a caller to his innovation[s] and this seems to be the established and preferred opinion.


2] regarding studying and taking knowledge

although accepting narrations is a part of gaining knowledge, it has some of its own special rulings. Here we mean taking explanations of texts, books and learning derived rulings from a particular shaikh. The scholars in this issue look less into his truthfulness and more to his influence on the student, as pointed out by shaikh al-uthaymeen.
And jazakallahu khair to our brothers for translating these rulings from shaikh al-uthaymeen, rahumullaah and our noble shaikh ubaid al-jaabiree. There is a ruling from shaikh muqbil on the ?advice for students of knowledge section?.  

[For more details of what I mentioned refer to shaikh ar-ruhaylee?s excellent book which no salafi taalib should be without, pages 657-686.]

This message was edited by amr.basheer on 12-1-02 @ 11:10 AM

uk_Salafi
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Shaykh Ubayd al-Jaabiree lays down the guidelines for learning arabic from the Innovators


Hudhayfah ibn al-Yamaan radiallaahu 'anhu said. "The people used to ask the Messenger of Allaah sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam about the good, but I used to ask him about the evil for fear that it would overtake me ..."


HassanAs-Somali
01-12-2002 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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The Shaykh Allaamah Ubaid Ibn Abdillaah was asked the following question on the  13/11/2002.



Is it permissible to learn the Arabic language from the innovators?


The Shaykh Responded:

I say that learning the Arabic language with an innovator has to have some guidelines. From them is that he (the mubtad?i) does not call to his bid?ah meaning in his classes , as if he calls to his bid?ah in his lesson and introduces it, then he should not study with him, especially those who do not have a command of the Arabic language or those who are beginners.

Secondly: That the people are forced to study the Arabic language with this Mubtad?i.

Thirdly: That the student is one who is firmly grounded in the (issue) of Aqeedah, in such a manner that the innovator would not introduce something from his Bid?ah except that he is able refute it and recognize it.
And these guidelines must be met.


وقال شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية:
لا عيب على من أظهر مذهب السلف وانتسب إليه واعتزى إليه بل يجب قبول ذلك منه بالاتفاق فإن مذهب السلف لا يكون إلا حقا
مجموع الفتاوى 4/ 149

This message was edited by HassanAs-Somali on 12-1-02 @ 6:38 PM

Moosaa
23-08-2003 @ 12:32 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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someone sent me an email recently asking about this topic...






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