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Posted By Topic: Erasing the false concept. I can't declare so and so an innovator unless the Ulama do so.

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asifhusain
28-09-2008 @ 4:51 AM    Notify Admin about this post
unspecified Asif bin Husain Mullaji (Mumbai, India)
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Erasing the false concept.
I can't declare so and so an innovator unless the Ulama do so.

By the noble Shaykh, al-'Allaamah Rabee' Ibn Hadee al-Madkhalee (hafidhaullaah)


Question: Is it for the student of knowledge to say: This one is an innovator (Mubtadi') and that one is astray or does he leave this to the Ulama? And if he keeps quiet about individuals and says: I am a student of knowledge until I learn and after that I will speak, disparage and appraise when I am an 'Alim?

Answer: Being just and taking the middle road is in everything; if there is a need to warn against a Rafidee, a Sufi who worships graves or a destroyed Hizbee (partisan), from the likes of this, this is in my opinion from advice to the Muslims is to clarify the situation of this person therefore clarifying it according to what he knows. For verily some things are clear; the deviance in it is clear, that which the student of knowledge knows and that which the Alim knows that if one asks advice then he is advised.

And if he sees someone who is deceived then he should clarify the situation to him, and this is not from backbiting that is dispraised but rather it is from the things that is lawful, that if he fears for him a Rafidee that will misguide him or a Sufi who worships graves or a Hizbee and those who resemble them from the people of desires then verily it is upon him to advise him with wisdom and say to him: this person has with him so and so may Allah bless you'all.

There are some things that are hidden (to the student of knowledge) and no one speaks of it except that he is from the people of knowledge and he does so with evidences. The Alim himself does not speak except with the truth and evidences and with justice and he doesn't say things about Allah (or his religion) without knowledge, and the student of knowledge also. Matters that he doesn't know he doesn't speak about it. As for matters that are known and are clear and there is a benefit for the Muslims then he speaks about it with evidences according to his ability and knowledge.

As for shutting one's mouth, with you not saying that so and so is astray or anything and verily there is only silence! Then this is what the people of misguidance want! They want that you never speak about the people of innovation ever! I keep quiet only and everyone is a Muslim for the Rawafid are our brothers and the grave worshippers are our brothers and what resembles this; these are from the things that are incorrect. And the student of knowledge speaks with evidences and clarity and wisdom, and beautiful speech and not with stupidity or with hastiness, some of them act foolish and are hasty and bring more harm than good and that stupidity and hastiness should be left off. May Allah bless you all.


http://www.rabee.net/show_fatwa.aspx?id=53

Notes: From the most odd of speech I have heard is that even if a person denies Allah's descriptions and curses the likes of Imam Al Bukhari that one cannot declare him a person of innovation unless an 'Alim does so! But as the Shaikh has showed this is a false principle. In addition to this it is a known principle from Abu Hasan Al Ma'ribi and those who follow him. And Allah's help is sought.

abu.ayyub.al-bukhari
15-10-2008 @ 6:32 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Ayyub Abdullah Ibn Abdurrahman (Helsinki,Finland)
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quote:

Notes: From the most odd of speech I have heard is that even if a person denies Allah's descriptions and curses the likes of Imam Al Bukhari that one cannot declare him a person of innovation unless an 'Alim does so! But as the Shaikh has showed this is a false principle. In addition to this it is a known principle from Abu Hasan Al Ma'ribi and those who follow him. And Allah's help is sought.


assalaamu alaikum,

Is it possible to have more information about this point?

Because the title of this thread is about innovator and here in this part you mentioned about person of innovation...

http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=23&Topic=1104 here in this link Shaykh Muhammad Bazmool explained difference between person of innovation and innovator.

Here in this link Shaykh Fawzan advices the following:

http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=16&Topic=5874

quote:

Firstly, it is not appropriate for the beginning students of knowledge, and others besides them from the common folk, to busy themselves with declaring people innovators (Tabdeeŭ) and declaring people to be immoral sinners (Tafseeq). This is because it is a matter that is dangerous, and they do not have the knowledge and comprehension in this matter. Also, this causes hatred and enmity between them. Therefore, it is obligatory upon them to busy themselves with seeking knowledge, and restraining their tongues from that which contains no benefit ŭ rather it contains harm for them, and for others besides them as well.


So is it possible to clarify more on this issue? Because I have always thought that some person can be considered person of innovation, however to label him as innovator then we have to take that issue to major scholars... I would appreciate if there are more clarifications.

Jazakallah Khayr.

assalam alaikum

abdullah.gambi
16-10-2008 @ 2:54 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Mu-aawiyah Abdullah bin AbuBakr Al (UK)
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Assalaamu alaykum warahmatullaah.

I ask Allaah to increase me and all of you in ikhlaas and thabaat.

Sheikh Rabee says: 'for verily some things are clear, the deviance in it is clear, that which the student of knowledge knows and that which the Alim knows that if one asks advice then he is advised.'  And the Sheikh also says: 'There are some things that are hidden (to the student of knowledge) and no one speaks of it except that he is from the people of knowledge and he does so with evidence.'

Therefore, what is apparent from the statement of Sheikh Rabee is that the student of knowledge has a responsibility similar to that of the Aalim in accordance with his ability and understanding.  Indeed, we all know that students of knowledge are of varying levels and it is the ulama who judge at what level they are of knowledge, understanding and trustworthiness.  Therefore, it must be the case that sheikh Rabee is referring to those well established students of knowledge who posses ability, understanding and clear sightedness in this affair being discussed.  

As for the statement of Sheikh Fawzaan, 'it is not appropriate for the beginning students of knowledge, and others besides them from the common folk, to busy themselves with declaring people innovators (Tabdee) and declaring people to be immoral sinners (Tafseeq)'

Firstly, the affair of the common folk is clear (myself included).  We do not make a judgment on this affair of (Tabdee).  However, after the ulama have declared someone an innovator or an evil doer, (and the ulama do not speak except with daleel), then we are to follow the verdicts of the ulama.  Likewise, it is required of us to protect ourselves, families, friends and the common Muslims like ourselves.  Therefore, whenever necessary, we are to transmit the verdicts and statements of the ulama to them in order to protect them from the plots of the innovators.

Secondly, as for the statement of Sheikh Saaleh: 'the beginning students of knowledge', then no doubt the beginning students of knowledge and the common people are not like the well established students of knowledge of the Ulama.  So what may apply to the common people and the beginning students of knowledge may not apply to the well established and trustworthy students of knowledge of the ulama.              
  
And Allah knows best.




sajid_chauhan_81
16-10-2008 @ 5:34 AM    Notify Admin about this post
unspecified ساجد (Mumbai (India))
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Check this out http://www.sunnahaudio.com/audio/unityadam.mp3

This lecture is entitled "The Unity of Ahlus-Sunnah in their Position Against Ahlul-Bid'ah" - Our brother, Aboo Ramlah Aadam Lazarus hafithahullaah bases this reminder upon a lecture delivered by Shaykh Rabee' Ibn Haadee entitled, "The Correct Position Against the People of Innovation." The speaker first defines who are the people of Sunnah and who are the people of Bid'ah (innovation), then he speaks about some of the Salafee brothers who are negligent in dealing with the people of bid'ah and who are put off when topics of manhaj are discussed. Towards the end, the speaker brings more benefits from the speech of Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Haadee al-Madkhalee, such as the claim that refutation of the people of bid'ah must come from a Scholar only and other doubts.

sajid_chauhan_81
18-10-2008 @ 1:01 AM    Notify Admin about this post
unspecified ساجد (Mumbai (India))
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Is it a condition to establish proof before declaring someone an Innovator?

Shaykh Rabee hafithahullaah responds in a detailed manner and presents the three categories of people who innovate along with an outline of how they are all to be dealt with by Ahlus-Sunnah.

http://www.sunnahpublishing.net/modules/Manhaj/tabdee.pdf

In the last paragraph of the treatise Shaykh gives some important naseeha to the Salafees.

abdullah.gambi
18-10-2008 @ 6:22 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Mu-aawiyah Abdullah bin AbuBakr Al (UK)
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Assalaamu alaykum warahmatullaahi wabarakaatuhu

Brothers Saajid and Asif, may Allaah reward you with good.  I ask Allaah to keep us and you upon the haqq and increase us and you in our  love for the Sunnah and its people.  

Jazaakumullaahu Khayran for the clarifications

Abu Mu-aawiyyah Abdullaah Bin AbuBakr Al-Fulaani Al-Gambi As-Salafi




sajid_chauhan_81
19-10-2008 @ 5:46 AM    Notify Admin about this post
unspecified ساجد (Mumbai (India))
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Wa iyaakum akhee Abdullaah. And may Allaah reward the brothers at Sunnah Publishing and the Mashaykh. May Allaah also reward brother Musa Millington from Trinidad who translated the fatwa on his blog. It should be noted that the note is from brother Musa Millington and not from the fatwa of Shaykh Rabee. And finally may Allaah reward brothers Asif and the admins for publishing this on salafitalk. Aameen.

yasin3683
09-02-2010 @ 4:04 AM    Notify Admin about this post
ibn Ahmad Maher ibn Ahmad (U.S.A.)
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Bismillaah Al-Hamdulillaah wa salatu wa salaamu 'ala rasulullaah

Amma ba'd

BaarakAllaahu fikum, ya ikhwaan. Here is more scholarly proof for refuting upon knowledge and sincerity, although this proof should not be confused for making takfeer, tabdee', or rulings on an individual. So beware.

The noble Shaikh Muhammad ibn Haadee al-Madkhalee (hafidhahullaah) has also brought clarity to many issues relating to warning against those who oppose the Sunnah.

quote:
So he has refuted the claims that are common among many people in our times. And from those doubts that are heard in these times is that a refutation upon someone who opposes the Sunnah must come from a scholar whose foot is firmly embedded in the field of knowledge. And the shaikh (hafidhahullaah) has explained this condition is not correct. Rather, as long as the Salafi doing the refutation has sound knowledge of that issue, then it is not necessary that he be from the scholars.


[Note regarding above quote: Due to the above title of this thread, it is important to mention that this statement of Shaikh Muhammad ibn Haadee al-Madkhalee (hafidhahullaah) refers to refuting the mistakes and innovations of individuals, without the mention of declaring a ruling upon that individual who is being refuted.]  

Source: How Ahlus Sunnah need to be unified in their stance toward Ahlul Bid'ah

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Also read:

[url=http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=16&Topic=10331]The Virtues of Refuting people of Bid'ah, and its Conditions[/url]


______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

IMPORTANT Note: The above is not to be confused with takfeer (making takfeer of a Muslim); takfeer is only for the 'ulamma). As a student of knowledge relayed,
quote:
"Takfeer is a locked door that only the 'Ulamaa have keys to."
In sha` Allaah, that is waadih (clear).

Subhanak Allaahuma wa bihamdika ash-hadu anlaa illaaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa atubu ilayk  

If I said anything correct, then it is from Allaah (subhanahu wa taa'ala), and if I erred, then that is from me and shaytan.

abulbashr
09-02-2010 @ 6:58 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Remlah Aadam bin David (Kuwait)
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As-salaamu a'laikum wa rahmatullah,

I see the need to clarify the above posted quote from Sheikh Muhammad bin Haadee حفظه الله  which had been previously narrated by me, because I feel it could be understood out of context in this thread.

Because of this thread's title, someone may mistakenly assume that the Sheikh's quote was in regards to declaring an individual to be an innovator ŭ تبديع.  Rather, this quote is clearly only referring to refuting the mistakes and innovations of individuals, without the mention of declaring a ruling upon that individual who is being refuted.







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