SalafiTalk.Net
SalafiTalk.Net » Affairs of Manhaj
» Shaykh al-Fawzaan confirms that Jamaa?at ut-Tableegh are innovators (with sound)
Search ===>




Part 1Part 2Part 3Part 4Part 5Part 6Part 7Part 8Part 9 • Part 10 • Part 11 • Part 12


   Reply to this Discussion Start new discussion << previous || next >> 
Posted By Topic: Shaykh al-Fawzaan confirms that Jamaa?at ut-Tableegh are innovators (with sound)

book mark this topic Printer-friendly Version  send this discussion to a friend  new posts last

abu.abdul.azeez
05-06-2003 @ 1:18 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Member
Posts: 216
Joined: Feb 2003
          
الحمد لله والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله

Questioner: I am a youth in the beginning of al-Istiqaamah, and I accompany Jamaa?at ut-Tableegh, and I want to travel with them to Pakistan, so with what do you advise me?

Shaykh Saalih: We advise you not to travel with them, and do not go out of your home with them to another masjid. I tell you do not accompany them ever, because they are innovators, they are a Jamaa?ah of innovations. And if there occurred in you goodness and love for the da?wah and enjoining good and forbidding evil, then the doors are open ? without Jamaa?at ut-Tableegh. Call to Allaah and enjoin the good and forbid the evil without befriending those (i.e. Jamaa?at ut-Tableegh).

Listen to it here:
http://www.sahab.fm/fm/braheen/alfozan/fawzan-tableeq.asf

Comments: This is another striking blow to Abul-Hasan and other than him who attempt to include Jamaa?at ut-Tableegh into the Saved Sect. And from their trickery is their statement that one must not make a general ruling that they are all innovators, rather, the judgment is to be made on an individual basis. And the falsehood of this is obvious, as Shaykh Saalih (and Shaykhs Bin Baaz and 'Abdur-Razzaaq 'Afeefee before him) has clearly made a general ruling that they are all innovators. And Allaah knows best.

------------------------------------------
Abu 'Abdul-'Azeez al-Misree
أبو عبد العزيز المصري

This message was edited by abu.abdul.azeez on 6-5-03 @ 5:00 AM

iamasalafi
05-06-2003 @ 4:31 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Sep 2002
          

http://www.fatwa-online.com/deviantgroups/jamaaahattableegh/0020718.htm

The prohibition of going out with the Jamaa'ah at-Tableegh

Question: May Allaah treat you well, Oh noble Shaykh, the questioner asks: "Is it permissible to go out for a period of months, or weeks, or days, as is done by the Jamaa'ah at-Tableegh (Tableeghi Jamaa'ah)? Is this Sunnah or Bid`ah? And is it permissible to go out with this Jamaa'ah (group) if the person is learning (studying) Sharee'ah knowledge?

Response: This is not permissible. This is Bid`ah (innovation). This Khurooj (going out), which is for 40 days, or 4 months, or 4 days, or 40 days, or 4 months, this is Bid`ah. And this group is a Soofee Jamaa'ah, and it is confirmed that they are a Soofee Jamaa'ah from the Deobandees (a group of Soofees from India). They go from land to land in order to spread Sufism. It is not permissible for a person of the Sunnah and a person of Tawheed to go out with them. Because if he goes out with them, he is helping them in spreading their Bid`ah, and people will use him as an argument, and they will say, "so-and-so goes out with them." Or they will say, "well, the people all go out with them." Or they say, "well, they're allowed in the country." Therefore, it is obligatory to reject these people. It is obligatory that they be rejected and they should not be given attention (i.e. listened to). This is so that they will return to with their Bid`ah to their own country, and so they do not spread their Bid`ah amongst us. Also, it is not permissible to go out with them to teach them. This is incorrect. Then along with this, they do not accept being taught. They do not accept being taught, because they are people of deceit and people who have a program. They have come in order to teach you, they have not come so that they can learn something from you. They have come to teach you their Soofism and their Madhhab . They have not come to learn from you! If they wanted to learn then they would sit with the scholars ('Ulamaa.) in the masaajid and read the books (of the Pious Predecessors). This is from the errors that it is not permissible to be decieved by. Yes.

Shaykh Saalih ibn Fowzaan

..........
Translated by: Abu Sumayyah Aqeel Walker


Listen to the actual recording here:
http://www.fatwa-online.com/audio/other/oth013/0020331.htm



spubs.com
05-06-2003 @ 7:24 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Administrator
Posts: 846
Joined: Sep 2002
          


JazaakumAllaahu khayran for these fataawaa!

Here is a reply that we put out in September 2002 to what was being spread by the followers of al-Ma`ribee in Luton, when al-Ma`ribee wrote a reply (full of deceptions) against Shaykh Muhammad al-Madkhalee's tapes when he speaks about al-Ma`ribee and the Jamaa`aat mentioned, Ikhwaan and Tableegh.

Mukhtasir Bayaan Talbees Abil-Mihan al-Misree al-Ma'ribee: Part 1


Concerning Ikhwan and Tabligh and Whether They Are From Ahl us-Sunnah and the Position of Imaam al-Albaani.

Introduction

This is a brief series, quickly refuting the deception and lies being spread from the words of Abul-Mihan al-Ma'ribee by his followers in the West. This Mubtadi' is now using whatever methods he can to save himself, and relying upon his ignorant followers to spread these shubuhaat.

Abul-Mihan al-Ma'ribee has replied to the refutation of him by Shaykh Muhammad al-Madkhalee concerning his position on Ikhwaan and whether they are from Ahl us-Sunnah or not, and in his reply he has again used talbees (deception) and lies, in order to confuse the Ummah and to beguile them, and then his followers in the West have propagated these lies.

So we say in response:

Summary of the Talbees: Shaykh Al-Albani does not make tabdee' of specific individuals who are attached to the Jamaa'aat like Ikhwan or Tabligh. Since, he differentiates between the manhaj of the individuals and manhaj of the Jamaa'ah, since in certain situations they might not be the same. Thus, al-Ma'ribee uses this (differentiation) in order move away from tabdee' of the Jamaa'ah and instead focus on "tabdee' of the manhaj". Notice this and pay very careful attention to it. When a person begins to say yes, the "manhaj" of the ikhwaan is innovated, astray etc., its shifts the focus away from the Jamaa'ah, and instead onto the actual details of the manhaj itself. Thus, we begin to say "the manhaj of Ikhwaan is innovated", and we tend to move away from saying, "the Ikhwaan are Innovators, upon innovation and misguidance, outside of Ahl us-Sunnah". So al-Ma'ribee has used some discussions of Shaykh al-Albaani in order to arrive at this particular understanding and ascribe it to Shaykh al-Albaani, without consideration of other statements of Shaykh al-Albaani in which he expels Ikhwaan from Ahl us-Sunnah.

What results does this have?


1. Absence of warning from the Jamaa'ah itself, by name.

2. Tending to consider it as a whole, not to be outside of Ahl us-Sunnah, since now the judgement is not placed upon the Jamaa'ah but upon its "manhaj".

3. Tending to move away from the manhaj of the Salaf in warning from individuals, and groups by name, and exposing them and refuting them, and instead speaking only broadly in terms of methodologies and creeds (thus, being able to avoid mention and warning of specific individuals or jamaa'aat).

4. Aiding the manhaj of Hassan al-Bannaa, the Ikhwaan in accommodating and showing ease to the Innovators

RESPONSE:

There are three distinct issues, and all of which are found in the words and various discussions of Imaam al-Albaani.

a) Not considering specific individuals amongst the Jamaa'ah to be innovators, due to the different motives found amongst them, since amongst them are i) those who subscribe to their beliefs and methodologies, working with and aiding the Jamaa'ah in its goals and objectives ii) those who entered them to correct and advise them, but without subscribing to the manhaj of the Jamaa'ah. Thus because of this we differentiate between individuals and the Jama'aah itself.

b) Considering the manhaj of the Jamaa'ah to be innovated.

c) Considering the Jamaa'ah as a whole, as an entity, to be outside of Ahl us-Sunnah, on account of what it has of innovation and misguidance. Al-Ma'ribee has conveniently left out what is found in the words of al-Albaani, where he expels Ikhwan as a whole from Ahl us-Sunnah. Here his speech is not about their "manhaj" but about the Jamaa'ah, itself, as an entity.

Shaikh al-Albaanee in many of his cassettes, and amongst his sayings is: "And I say then, that it is not correct for it to be said that al-Ikhwaan ul-Muslimeen are from Ahl us-Sunnah, because they fight against the Ahl us-Sunnah" [From the tape: Debate with a Suroori]. And he also said on the tape concerning Sayyid Qutb, "they (the Ikhwaan) wage a war against Tawheed".

(And Imaam Ibn Baaz considered the Ikhwan and Tabligh to be from the Seventy-Two sects, and Shaykh al-Fawzaan also considered every Jamaa'ah that opposes Ahl us-Sunnah, in aqeedah, manhaj etc. is from the Innovators.)

So al-Ma'ribee took a particular discussion (or discussions) in which al-Albaani is really speaking about tabdee' of specific individuals and guidelines concerning it, and that it is not absolutely the case that everyone within a Jamaa'ah is necessarily upon the manhaj of the Jamaa'ah (since he might have joined just to correct them), and then using these words to claim that this differentiation is indicative of al-Albanis' absolute and unrestricted viewpoint that Ikhwan are not outside of Ahl us-Sunnah.

This is talbees, since these discussions are related to judgements upon individuals, and differentiating between individuals, what they are upon, and what the manhaj of the Jamaa'ah is and that one might not be the same as the other (i.e. the manhaj of the Jamaa'ah and the manhaj of the indvidual).

However, in numerous other discussions, Shaykh al-Albaani discusses another issue which is that Ikhwaan are actually outside of Ahl us-Sunnah, i.e. as a Jamaa'ah, as a group, as an entity. And this is what al-Ma'ribee wishes to avoid, or he is not too keen on this approach, and uses very watered-down, lenient approaches. Thus, he relied upon some discussions as opposed to others, so that it all fits into his false manhaj.

And this all fits in with the new wave of the Bannaawee assault which is to find ways and means to accommodate and defend the Innovators.

And in his reply to Shaykh Muhammad bin Haadee, this is what was used by al-Ma'ribee, in order to excuse himself.

Here are some quotes from al-Ma'ribee (dated 26/6/1423):
quote:
When I came back from Amman, for a period of time I felt that the opinion of the Sheikh was correct. This was based upon the following ? that the problem and mistakes that they (ikwaan) were upon, I considered to be fardiyah (individual) and not manhajiyah (methodology). So I recorded a tape in Aden and Abyan with some students of knowledge and mentioned this issue to them. A while later, it became clear to me that we must differentiate between hukm over manhaj and hukm over afrad (individuals).
quote:
This is the opinion which I have been firm upon for many years, that there is a difference between manhaj (of a jammah) and afraad (individuals within that jammah).
quote:
So that manhaj (of the jammah) is a manhaj deviated from ahlul sunnah. As for the individuals, then each person is criticised by that which he deserves, after looking into his matter from all angles. So this is my position which is recorded on tape from a long time ago.

Note how he focuses on differentiating between the "manhaj" of a jamaa'ah and the "manhaj" of an individual, and then he restricts himself to this differentiation (between these two issues), without venturing into the third and required additional issue which is that the Jamaa'ah itself is outside of Ahl us-Sunnah because of its innovated manhaj. So there is the a) hukm over the individual, then b) over the manhaj, but what about c) the hukm over the Jamaa'ah itself?

al-Ma'ribee has replied in such a manner so as to avoid any discussion of this last point, and this is what one generally finds in his speech concerning this subject.

So it is upon al-Ma'ribee to

1. Repent more clearly from his vague position

2. Speak with the speech of the scholars of Ahl us-Sunnah that Ikhwaan, as a Jamaa'ah, are Innovators, outside of Ahl us-Sunnah, and amongst the seventy-two sects - and with individuals amongst them it depends upon iqaamatul-hujjah - and not limit his speech just on "the manhaj" of these Jamaa'aat. Rather, he must speak about the Jamaa'aat themselves, as entities, groups, specifically.

3. Hold it forbidden to make co-operation with them and to be intimate with them, unless they return to the manhaj of the Salaf

4. To announce the error of what he has stated and make clear his recantation in words that are unambiguous.

And this is nothing more than what the Scholars of Ahl us-Sunnah have asked from him.

______________
www.spubs.com

This message was edited by spubs.com on 6-8-03 @ 8:56 PM

abu.abdul.azeez
05-06-2003 @ 7:45 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Member
Posts: 216
Joined: Feb 2003
          
quote:
...that Ikhwaan, as a Jamaa'ah, are Innovators, outside of Ahl us-Sunnah, and amongst the seventy-three sects...

This should read "..amongst the seventy-two sects..." when you subtract Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah. Jazaak Allaahu Khayrun for the informative and beneficial post.

------------------------------------------
Abu 'Abdul-'Azeez al-Misree
أبو عبد العزيز المصري

abu.abdul.azeez
16-06-2003 @ 1:48 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Member
Posts: 216
Joined: Feb 2003
          
Two additional points of benefit:

Firstly: During one of Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan?s ?Nawaaqid ul-Islaam? lectures on Paltalk about a month ago, the Shaykh was explaining the difference between the general ruling that the Kuffaar are in Hell and a specific ruling that a particular individual is in Hell. He mentioned that indeed, the Kuffaar - all of them in general - are in Hell, whereas passing such a verdict upon a specific individual was not permissible due to the proof not being fully established (e.g. perhaps he did not die upon kufr, or perhaps he secretly embraced Islaam, etc).

Analogously, Jamaa?at ut-Tableegh and Ikhwaan are innovators, outside of Ahl us-Sunnah and amongst the 72 sects, as has been textually stated by a number of Scholars (and was the goal of this thread). However, passing a verdict that a specific individual amongst them is innovator requires the proof to be established upon him. (1) Does he know exactly what they are upon and has he been informed of their reality? For indeed, as Shaykh al-Fawzaan and Shaykh Rabee? have stated elsewhere, some People of Knowledge did go out with Tableegh and defend them until their affair became clear to them. (2) Also, as the brother mentioned above, is he mixing with them in order to advise them and call them away from their misguidance, or is he actually aiding them in their wicked objectives?

Thus, as per the tafseel of al-Imaam al-Albaanee, the situation of specific individuals requires investigation. And as the brother stated, this in no way negates the fact that Tableegh and Ikhwaan are innovators in general, outside of Ahl us-Sunnah, just as the absence of declaring specific people to be from amongst the inhabitants of Hell does not negate the fact that the Kuffaar in general are in Hell.

Clearly, one can see that this is a far cry from ?al-manhaj ul-waasi?? propagated by Abil-Hasan. He, through trickery and deceit, sought to use Shaykh al-Albaanee?s not passing rulings over specific individuals to negate the general ruling that Ikhwaan and Tableegh are outside of Ahl us-Sunnah and amongst the 72 sects.

Secondly: The notion of ?mixing with them in order to advise them and call them away from their misguidance? is actually very rare and almost unheard of. In fact, more often than not, it is used as an excuse by Ahl ut-Tamyee? in order to justify cooperation with the people of innovation. Furthermore, despite the fact that Shaykh Bin Baaz held it to be permissible for a Scholar to go on khurooj with Tableegh in order to advise them and reject their misguidance, other Scholars disagreed with him in this, as is evident by the second fatwa of Shaykh al-Fawzaan shown above. Shaykh Rabee? also commented on these fataawaa of Shaykh Bin Baaz in his booklet ?Aqwaal ?Ulamaa is-Sunnah fee Jamaa?at it-Tableegh? and mentioned something similar to what Shaykh al-Fawzaan has said above ? i.e. that they do not accept being taught, and thus, going khurooj with them is impermissible regardless. And I have personally witnessed that to which Shaykh al-Fawzaan referred, i.e. that the Tableegh will use such a person as a proof for their stray Jamaa?ah against Ahl us-Sunnah, and meanwhile this person will have no positive effect on them.

And Allaah knows best.

------------------------------------------
Abu 'Abdul-'Azeez al-Misree
أبو عبد العزيز المصري

This message was edited by abu.abdul.azeez on 6-17-03 @ 3:32 AM

abdulilah
16-06-2003 @ 4:26 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Member
Posts: 327
Joined: Sep 2002
          
Cooperating with other groups in particular Jama?atu Tableegh
From the Elder Scholars of Saudi Arabia
FATAWA 18870 DATED 11/6/1417
SHEIKH BIN BAZ RAHIMAHOLLAAH
SHEIKH ABDULAZIZ AALSHIEKH
SHEIKH SAALIH FAWZAN
SHEIKH BAKR ABU ZAYD


سئلت اللجنة الدائمة للبحوث العلمية والإفتاء بالمملكة العربية السعودية

السؤال التالي :

( بناءاً على قوله تعالى : ( وتعاونوا على البر والتقوى ولا تعاونوا على الإثم


Regarding the above Verse:
"And Cooperate upon Birr (righteousness) and Taqwaa (piety) not upon Ithm (sin) and Udwaan(transgression)."

والعدوان ) يـُقال : إنه يجب التعاون مع كل الجماعات الإسلامية ، وإن كانت
تختلف بينها في مناهج وطريق دعوتهم ؛ فإن جماعة التبيلغ طريق دعوتها غير
طريق الإخوان المسلمين ، أو حزب التحرير ، أو جماعة الجهاد ، أو السلفيين ،

It is said that it is an obligation to cooperate with every Islamic group even though they differ between themselves in their methodology, way of their call, for example Jamaa'at Tableegh differs in their way of Da'wa to the way of Ikhwaanil Muslimeen or Hizbut-Tahreer, or Jamaa'at al Jihaad or the Salafees

فما هو الضابط لهذا التعاون ؟ وهل ينحصر مثلاً في المشاركة في المؤتمرات
والندوات ؟

So what is the principle we follow in this cooperation? And is this limited for example to being part of a venue (of lectures) and conferences?
وماذا عند توجيه الدعوة إلى غير المسلمين حيث يكون هناك التباس

لدى المسلمين الجدد ؟ فإن كل جماعة من هذه الجماعات ، سوف توجههم إلى
مراكزها ، وإلى علمائها ؛ فيكونون في حيرة من أمرهم؟ فكيف يمكن تفادي هذا

الأمر ؟

And what will be the advice in the call to other than the Muslims such that there will be confusion to those new Muslims for every group from these groups will call them to their own centers and their scholars and so their affair will be in confusion? So how can this situation be avoided?


Answer:

فأجابت اللجنة بما يلي :

( الواجب التعاون مع الجماعة التي تسير على منهج الكتاب والسنة وما عليه

سلف الأمة ، في الدعوة إلى توحيد الله سبحانه وإخلاص العبادة له ، والتحذير

من الشرك والبدع والمعاصي ، ومناصحة الجماعات المخالفة لذلك ، فإذا رجعت

إلى الصواب ؛ فإنه يتعاون معها ، وإن استمرت على المخالفة ؛ وجب الابتعاد

عنها ، والتزام الكتاب والسنة.

It is obligatory to work with that group that is upon the menhaj of the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of the Messenger sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam and what the sallaf of the ummah were upon in the call to the Tawheed of Allaah and making worship sincerely to Allaah and warning against shirk and innovations and sins. To advise those groups that oppose this, so if they turn back to correctness then they are to be cooperated with them but if they continue upon opposing (the truth) then it is a must to be away from them and to stick to the Book and the Sunnah.


والتعاون مع الجماعات الملتزمة لمنهج الكتاب والسنة ، يكون في كل ما فيه

من خير وبر وتقوى ، من الندوات والمؤتمرات والدروس والمحاضرات ، وكل

ما فيه نفع للإسلام والمسلمين ) انتهى نقلاً من كتاب " زجر المتهاون بضرر

قاعدة المعذرة والتعاون " لـ حمد بن إبراهيم العثمان ( ص131 ـ 132 )

وقد راجع هذا الكتاب الشيخ صالح الفوزان وقرظه الشيخ عبد المحسن العباد .

Working with those groups that are upon the menhaj of Book and the Sunnah then this is in all that is good, righteous, and piety. That being in terms of gatherings and conferences and lessons and lectures. All that is for the benefit to Islam and the Muslims.

[Quoted from the excellent book 'Zajr al Mutahawun fee Ma'dirati wa Ta'awun? by Sheikh Hamad Uthmaan which has been given an introduction by our beloved Sheikhs Salih Fawzan ibn Abdullah Fawzaan and Sheikh al Muhadith AbdulMuhsin Abbad Hafidahumallaahu jamee'an.
FATAWA 18870 DATED 11/6/1417
SHEIKH BIN BAZ RAHIMAHOLLAAH
SHEIKH ABDULAZIZ AALSHIEKH
SHEIKH BAKR ABU ZAYD
SHEIKH SAALIH FAWZAN
ورقم هذه الفتوى 18870 بتاريخ 11 / 6 / 1417هـ.

وقد صدرت هذه الفتوى من كل من فضيلة الشيخ العلامة عبدالعزيز بن عبدالله

بن باز رحمه الله والشيخ عبدالعزيز آل الشيخ والشيخ عبدالله الغديان والشيخ

بكر بن عبدالله أبو زيد والشيخ صالح الفوزان حفظهم الله .




قال تعالى:{إنا نحن نزلنا الذكر وإنا له لحافظون}
قال الشيخ السعدي - رحمه الله - في تفسيره (3/31): " فلا يحرف محرف معنى من معانيه( القرآن ) إلا وقيض  الله له من يبين الحق المبين وهذا من أعظم آيات الله ونعمه على عباده المؤمنين".

abu.abdul.azeez
18-06-2003 @ 5:39 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Member
Posts: 216
Joined: Feb 2003
          
Jazaaka Allaahu Khayrun.

The statement "...but if they continue upon opposing (the truth) then it is a must to be away from them and to stick to the Book and the Sunnah" reconciles the statements found in the previous fataawaa of Shaykh Bin Baaz, i.e. that one can only go with them to advise them as long as they accept this advice and do not "continue upon opposing the Sunnah." And the reality is, as Shaykhs Saalih al-Fawzaan and Rabee' Bin Haadee have explained, they do not accept advice and have continued upon their ways of bid'ah and dalaalah for over 80 years with no sign of return towards the Book and Sunnah.

------------------------------------------
Abu 'Abdul-'Azeez al-Misree
أبو عبد العزيز المصري






SalafiPublications.Com
TawhidFirst | Aqidah | AboveTheThrone | Asharis
Madkhalis | Takfiris | Maturidis | Dajjaal
Islam Against Extremism | Manhaj
Ibn Taymiyyah | Bidah
Best Way to Learn Arabic Online


main page | contact us
Copyright © 2001 - SalafiTalk.Net
Madinah Dates Gold Silver Investments