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Posted By Topic: Question concerning Aqeedatul Tahaawiyyah?

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Mahmoud.Somali
04-22-2004 @ 6:19 AM    Notify Admin about this post
ابي سلمة محمود بن عبد بن سعد (America)
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Posts: 53
Joined: Apr 2003
          
Assalaamu Allaykum;

I am reading العقيدة الطحاوية (Aqeedatu Tawaawiyyah explanation by Allamah ash-Shayk Muhammad Ibn Abdul-azeez Ibn Manaa' and Ta'leeq is done by Shayk Ibn Baz). And my question concerning one of the points which mentioned in the begining of the book.

It is on the fifth point:

٥.قديم بلا ابتداء داءم بلا انتهاء

Could somebody please who has access to explanation of it submit it either in Arabic or Enlish. Reason being that the explanation of "Qadeem" part is not too clear for me. Inshallah; it would  be nice for those who have access to different shurooh to post?

Jazakaallahu Khair

abu.naimah.shamsuddi
04-22-2004 @ 11:57 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Na'imah Shamsuddin Abdul-Hakim ib (Rochester,NY, USA)
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Posts: 132
Joined: Dec 2002
          
Al-Hamdulillahi Ta'Ala wa salatu wa sallamu 'ala Rasulullah

amma ba'd;

Salamu alaikum wa rahmatullah;

"He is Qadeem [Eternal] with no beginning, and The Everlasting with no end." [Aqeedah Tahawiyyah point #5]

Al-Allaamah ash-Shaikh Salih bin Fawzaan al-Fawzaan [hafidhahullah] explained:

" As the statement of Allaah proves this, "He is The First and The Last." [Al-Hadid {57} ayat:3], along with statement of His Messenger [sallahu alaihi wa sallam] "You are The First, so there are none before You, and You are The Last, so there are none after You." [Muslim transmitted #6551]

"But the Qadeem [old] is not associated with Allaah, except informatively. It is not from His names; rather from His names is Al-Awwal [The First], and Al-Awwal is not like Al-Qadeem, because Al-Qadeem may have something before it, while Al-Awwal has nothing preceding it. He [sallallahu alaihi wa sallam] said "You are Al-Awwal", so there is none before You."

"Rather, the author was caustious, so he said, "He is Qadeem with no beginning." But if he would have said, "Qadeem" and stopped, then the meaning of this would be incorrect." [At-Ta'leeqat Al-Mukhtasirah alaa Matn Aqeedah At-Tahaawiyyah]...
translated by Kashif bin Hazoor Khan as Salafi
taken from therighteouspath.com

And Allah knows best



Abu Na'imah Shamsuddin

This message was edited by abu.naimah.shamsuddi on 4-23-04 @ 4:33 AM

Moosaa
04-23-2004 @ 9:37 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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wa 'alaykumus-salaamu wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh...

"...if he would have said, "Qadeem" and stopped, then the meaning of this would be incorrect." [At-Ta'leeqat Al-Mukhtasirah alaa Matn Aqeedah At-Tahaawiyyah]..."

This shows how the scholars deal with phrases not mentioned in the texts and/or not mentioned by our Salaf.  The word "qadeem" is from them.  We do not accept its usage in reference to Allaah at all.  However, we look to the intention of the person using the word and if the meaning that they intend is correct, then we affirm the correctness of the meaning while replacing the word with something that is established.  In this case, we say Ibn Abil-'Izz did not intend to say that Allaah is qadeem, meaning something old that had a beginning, rather he meant the correct meaning of the name "al-Awwal".  So we affirm the correct meaning for his speech, however we abandon the word qadeem and do not use it in reference to Allaah (even with the correct meaning), rather we use that which is supported by the texts and that used by the salaf: al-Awwal.

This principle is very important, so review EXEMPLARY FOUNDATIONS by Ibn 'Uthaymeen (p.66-68), regarding the usage of the word "jihah".  So understand the difference between accepting the meaning and accepting the word/phrase itself, may Allaah bless you.

Moosaa ibn John Richardson

********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك

Mahmoud.Somali
04-24-2004 @ 3:22 AM    Notify Admin about this post
ابي سلمة محمود بن عبد بن سعد (America)
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Posts: 53
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Assalaamu  Allayakum,

Jazakakumallahu Khayran,

it is now crystal clear to me, Allhumdullah for this forum.

Moosaa
04-26-2004 @ 4:59 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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Posts: 1280
Joined: Sep 2002
          
[from a reply to a brother's PM]

wa 'alaykumus-salaamu wa rahmatullaahi

"When you wrote ibn Abil-'Izz is this Abu Ja'far  
    atTahaawee?"


Ibn Abil-'Izz al-Hanafee explained at-Tahaawiyyah of Abu Ja'far.  Actually I meant to refer to the author of the text, not the explanation.  May Allaah reward you.  Actually, Ibn Abil-'Izz explained that the meaning of Qadeem is found in the Name "Al-Awwal", and to use the Name "Qadeem" for Allaah is not correct as there is no text to support that. [Sharh at-Tahaawiyyah, 1/170-172, ar-Risaalah]

"When you stated that 'we abandon the word        
    qadeem', is this to say that Imaam At-Tahaawee was
    mistaken in using that word in his great book?  
    I do understand that this is possible and I don't  
    intend to raise anyone above their rank, I just
    wanted to understand 'abandon the word' correctly."


I meant that we do not use it to refer to Allaah, we stick to the Names and descriptions of Allaah mentioned in the texts and refer to Him with those.  Since descriptions not mentioned in the texts have to be explained in a way that agrees with what has come in the texts, like Qadeem explained to have the meaning of al-Awwal for example, so then logically why not just keep to the exact words used in the texts, and As-Salaamah laa ya'diluhaa shay'un (There is nothing like safety, especially when speaking about Allaah!)

As for Imaam At-Tahaawee being mistaken, you can refer to Ibn Abil-'Izz's explanation and how he explained the word "qadeem" as "al-Awwal" and then cleared up any confusion that might stem from the term "qadeem".  He said, "...And the (texts of the) Shar' have come with His Name Al-Awwal, and it is better than "Al-Qadeem", since it cause one to understand that everything after it is to be returned to it, and follows it, as opposed to "al-qadeem", and Allaah has the MOST BEAUTIFUL Names, not just beautiful Names..." [1/172]

If it was a mistake or improper, then is the way
    that Sh. Fawzaan delt with his mistake the proper
    way that the scholars of Ahlul Sunnah refute other
    scholars from Ahlul Sunnah.


Sh. Saalih, may Allaah preserve him, made it clear that the author intended the meaning established by the name "al-Awwal": "But if he would have said, "Qadeem" and stopped, then the meaning of this would be incorrect..."  So he affirmed the correctness of the meaning of the word "qadeem", while guiding us to use the word that is clear and established in the texts: "Al-Qadeem may have something before it, while Al-Awwal has nothing preceding it..."

And Allaah knows best.

Moosaa ibn John Richardson

********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك

Moosaa
04-26-2004 @ 5:02 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
Member
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sep 2002
          
Additionally, other scholars besides at-Tahaawee (like Ibn Mandah and al-Bayhaqee for example), referred to Allaah as "Qadeem", and that was most likely based on the fact that the name "al-Qadeem" is one of the names mentioned in al-Waleed ibn Muslim's narration of the hadeeth regarding the 99 Names of Allaah.  The narration is dha'eef (weak), however a number of scholars assumed it to be authentic, and this gives us some insight as to why they affirmed it, and Allaah knows best.

Moosaa ibn John Richardson

********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك

abu.naimah.shamsuddi
04-27-2004 @ 3:54 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Na'imah Shamsuddin Abdul-Hakim ib (Rochester,NY, USA)
Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Dec 2002
          
wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullah;

Jazakallahu khairun for the additional information.

Abu Na'imah Shamsuddin






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