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Posted By Topic: Authenticity of this hadith

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7heavens
07-16-2009 @ 2:58 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Bakr ibn Hudaifah (Belgium)
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Ibn taimiyya was asked if the dead are aware of the living who visit them. Ibn taimiyya replied : ıThere is no doubt that they are aware of the living that visit them.ı And Ibn Taymiyyah quoted the following Hadith in his support: ıThe proof of dead awareness comes from two Sahih Books of Bukhari and Muslim in which Rasool Allah (SWT)(alayhi salaat wa salaam) said that when people have buried a dead person and leave for home, the dead can hear the thumps of sandaled feet of those who leave.ı

(Majma al-Fatawa by Ibn Taymiyyah, vol. 24, page 362 )

Abu Huraira r.a. reported that the Prophet s.a.w. said : ıBy the one in Whose hand is Abu al-Qasimıs soul, ıIsa ibn Maryam shall descend as a just and wise ruler. He shall destroy the cross, slay the swine, eradicate discord and grudges, and money shall be offered to him but he will not accept it. Then he shall stand at my grave side and say: ıO Muhammad!ı and I will answer him.ı

This hadith is narrated by Abu Yaıla in his Musnad (11:462) with a sahih chain as declared by Ibn Hajar Al-Haytami in Majmaı Zawaıid (8:211)

Assalamualaikum brothers, Can someone confirm the above sayings? Jazakallahu Khair.

Moosaa
07-17-2009 @ 5:33 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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Wa 'alaykumus-salaamu wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh...

Yes, that seems to be an accurate summary of Ibn Taymiyyah's - rahimallaah - position (24/362-365).  As proofs he mentioned:

[1] The hadeeth you mentioned found in al-Bukhaaree and Muslim

[2] That which is established from the Battle of Badr, that he addressed the dead enemies in the well, calling them by their names, asking, "Have you found what your Lord promised you to be true?!" (a rhetorical question)  'Umar then question him about this, to which he replied, "I swear by the One in whose Hand lies my soul!  You hear me no clearer than they do!  Except that they can not respond!"

[3] What we have been ordered to say when visiting the Muslim graveyards, "As-Salaamu 'alaykum, o abode of the believers!  We shall be joining you shortly, in shaa' Allaah...!" (al-Bukhaaree and Muslim)  Ibn Taymiyyah said, "This is an address directed to them, and only those who can hear are possibly addressed."

[4] The order to give salaams to the deceased in general.

[5] The order to send salaams to the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) specifically, and that there are angels who convey our salaams to him.

He further clarified that this does not mean that they will hear all the time, just as the living do not hear everything all the time, there could be something preventing them from hearing.

As for the Qur'aanic verse that means, "You can not possibly make the dead hear (you)", Ibn Taymiyyah said that this means the hearing that leads to obedience, not just being aware of what has been said.  Allaah has said in Soorah al-Anfaal what means: "Had Allaah known any good in them He would have made them listen""  Meaning: listening or hearing that leads to following and obeying.

[end of summary of Ibn Taymiyyah's words]

And Allaah knows best.

I will comment on the second part of your question shortly in shaa' Allaah...

Moosaa ibn John Richardson

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Moosaa
07-17-2009 @ 9:55 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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quote:
Abu Huraira r.a. (may Allaah be pleased with him)reported that the Prophet s.a.w. (may Allaah raise his rank and grant him peace) said : ıBy the one in Whose hand is Abu al-Qasimıs soul, ıIsa ibn Maryam shall descend as a just and wise ruler. He shall destroy the cross, slay the swine, eradicate discord and grudges, and money shall be offered to him but he will not accept it. Then he shall stand at my grave side and say: ıO Muhammad!ı and I will answer him.ı

This hadith is narrated by Abu Yaıla in his Musnad (11:462) with a sahih chain as declared by Ibn Hajar Al-Haytami in Majmaı Zawaıid (8:211)


Some benefits related to this question and its answer

[1] It is not permissible to abbreviate supplications with codes or symbols, since du'aa' is worship.  Acts of worship are not to be modified in any way, as a principle called towqeefiyyatul-'ibaadaat.  This is an important manner for students of hadeeth to observe (in both speaking and writing) and it has been studied traditionally by students of hadeeth in the books of Mustalah.

[2] Majma' az-Zawaa'id is not by Ibn Hajr al-Haytamee [d.974] (with a taa), rather it is by Noor ad-Deen 'Alee ibn Abee Bakr al-Haythamee [d.807] (with a thaa).

[3] There is a serious error in the translation of the text, it should read at the end: "...Then if he stood at my grave and said, 'O Muhammad!', (even) I would respond."  Here's the arabic: (فإن قام عند قبري فقال يا محمد لأجيبه)

[4] Al-Haythamee did not call its chain saheeh as claimed.  Rather he said, "It is found in the Saheeh (collections of al-Bukhaaree and/or Muslim) with abridged wordings.  It was collected by Aboo Ya'laa, and its narrators are from those used in the Saheeh (collections of al-Bukhaaree and Muslim)."

There is a very important difference.  When al-Haythamee refrained from calling the hadeeth or its chain saheeh, and only calls its narrators reliable, then this is not a verdict on the hadeeth or its chain.  Rather, it is an indication that there is a defect in its chain, hence he refrains from actually calling the hadeeth or its chain saheeh.  The narrators being those from the Saheeh (collections of al-Bukhaaree and Muslim) does not in itself fulfill the conditions needed to rule on a hadeeth with authenticity.  This is a delicate difference between the two phrases "its chain is saheeh" and "its narrators are those of the Saheeh".

[5] So then is there a defect in the hadeeth?  Yes, it would be the fact that this wording ("...Then if he stood at my grave and said...") is only found in the narration of Aboo Sakhr, who relayed it from Sa'eed al-Maqburee, from Aboo Hurayrah.  Aboo Sakhr, even though he is from Imaam Muslim's narrators, was criticized.  Ahmad, Ibn Ma'een, an-Nasaa'ee called him unreliable.  Others considered him reliable.  In fact, Ahmad and Ibn Ma'een are both reported to have praised him as well.  So he is differed over.  The fact that Imaam Muslim used him in the Saheeh gives his reliability strength.  However, for a narrator like this, to be alone in reporting an additional phrase for a well-known hadeeth that has many narrators, would cause one to lean towards considering it a mistake, and thus: shaath.  However, I do not know of anyone who made a ruling on this hadeeth, other than Irshaad al-Haqq al-Atharee, the checker of Aboo Ya'laa's Musnad, who said the hadeeth has a defect in it, but did not expound.  He likely was referring to what has been mentioned here.

[6] I found a support for the additional wording in the hadeeth in the Mustadrak of al-Haakim (#4221), by way of Muhammad ibn Is-haaq, from Sa'eed, from 'Ataa' the freed slave of Umm Habeebah, from Aboo Hurayrah.  This chain has a couple problems, however it can be used to strengthen Aboo Sakhr's narration.  But in the end, this would only confirm that it is truly Sa'eed al-Maqburee's narration, and this would need a seperate study, since Sa'eed's condition changed in the last four years of his life, and thus we would need to date the hadeeth, and it could possibly be a mistake by Sa'eed.  This requires more time than I have right now to study.

[7] If the hadeeth is acceptable, then the following meaning could be applied to it:  That it is in praise of 'Eesaa ibn Maryam.  The Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) mentioned all the things he will accomplish by Allaah's Permission, and then says (allegedly): "...Then if he stood at my grave and said, 'O Muhammad!', (even) I would respond."  Meaning:  He is a great leader who all the believers respond to, obey, and follow.  So as an extreme "IF" example, this situation is mentioned.  However, you can see clearly that the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) - if the hadeeth is authentic - did not inform us that this would happen , as he informed us of the other things that would actually happen.

[8] In some of the narrations of this hadeeth, there is a request to convey the Messenger's salaams to him, which would contradict the idea that there would be communication Muhammad and 'Eesaa.

And Allaah knows best.

Moosaa ibn John Richardson

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Moosaa
07-17-2009 @ 10:01 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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And I would be very interested in knowing about a printing of Aboo Ya'laa's Musnad that goes to 11 volumes - if that reference is not a mistake!

Moosaa ibn John Richardson

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7heavens
07-19-2009 @ 2:44 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Bakr ibn Hudaifah (Belgium)
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Thank you very much for the detailed answer brother. I also want to know whether Ibn Al-Qayyim was of the same view that the dead can hear. Which is the correct opinion? Jazakalla Khair.

abdul.azeem
07-20-2009 @ 8:02 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Abd Ar Rahman Abd Al Adheem Ibn Faheem ibn Zia ibn Ma'een (KSA/ Bangalore, India)
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Ibn Taymiyyah Did Not Believe That Dead Hear All The Time Except What Is Mentioned In The Texts


Moosa said in the above post:

quote:

He further clarified that this does not mean that they will hear all the time, just as the living do not hear everything all the time, there could be something preventing them from hearing.


Shaykh Salih al-Fawzaan used this statement from Majmoo Fatawa (24-364), in his radd on Alee Ridhaa (page 7), in order to refute the argument that the dead hear all the time and can recognize those who visit them.

ونقل مقتطفات من كلام شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية في "مجموع الفتاوى" من الجزء الرابع والعشرين ، ومن كلام ابن القيم في كتاب "الروح" ، لا تتفق مع العنوان الذي وضعه وهو : معرفة الميت بزيارة الحي له واستبشاره ؛ لأن شيخ الإسلام رحمه الله لما ساق النصوص التي استدل بها ، قال : ( فهذه النصوص وأمثالها تبين أن الميت يسمع في الجملة كلام الحي ، ولا يجب أن يكون يسمع دائماً ، بل قد يسمع في حال دون حال ) . هذا ما قاله الشيخ .

والكاتب أطلق في عنوانه الذي وضعه : أن الميت يعرف الحي الذي يزوره ويستبشر به ، ولم يقيد ذلك بما قيد به شيخ الإسلام .

quote:

هذا على أن أحوال الأموات في القبور من أمور الغيب التي لا يعلمها إلا الله ، فلا يجوز الكلام فيها إلا في حدود ما تدل عليه النصوص الصحيحة ، وما عدا ذلك فيُمسَك عن الكلام فيه


[End of Shaykh Fawzaan's Words]

So many of them who quote Ibn Taymiyyah, especially the soofees, fail to mention these words as Sarfaraz Khan Safdar did in his Simaa wal-Mawtaa.

Ibn Tamiyyah said in Majmoo:


وروى أبو عمر بن عبد البر عن النبى صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه قال : " ما من رجل يمر بقبر الرجل كان يعرفه فى الدنيا فيسلم عليه إلا رد الله عليه روحه حتى يرد عليه السلام .

وفي السنن عنه أنه قال : " أكثروا من الصلاة على يوم الجمعة، وليلة الجمعة، فإن صلاتكم معروضة على " ،فقالوا : يا رسول الله،وكيف تعرض صلاتنا عليك وقد أرمت ؟ يعني صرت رميما فقال : " إن الله تعالى حرم على الأرض أن تأكل لحوم الأنبياء " . وفي السنن أنه قال : " إن الله وكل بقبري ملائكة يبلغوني عن أمتي السلام " .

quote:


فهذه النصوص وأمثالها تبين أن الميت يسمع في الجملة كلام الحي، ولا يجب أن يكون السمع له دائماً، بل قد يسمع في حال دون حال





As for the first narration from Ibn Abd-il-Barr then it is weak -

See -

>> Click Here <<

Even for the sake of argument if we agreed that Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah said that the dead hear all the time unrestricted, he vehemently opposed calling upon the dead and his understanding of this narration was completely in opposition to the soofees.

Ibn Taymiyyah said in Jaami' Rasaail about this same weak hadeeth -

وقال ابن عبد البر: ثبت عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه قال: " ما من رجل يمر بقبر رجل كان يعرفه فيسلم عليه إلا رد الله عليه روحه حتى يرد عليه السلام " .
وفي سنن أبي داود عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه قال: " ما من رجل مسلم سلم علي إلا رد الله علي روحي حتى أرد عليه السلام "

quote:

لكن ليس من المشروع أن يطلب من الأموات شيئاً.


And he rahimahullah said in Majmoo after quoting the same hadeeth -

quote:

لكن ليس من المشروع أن يطلب من الأموات لا دعاء ولا غيره


End of words of Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah.

abdul.azeem
07-20-2009 @ 8:30 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Abd Ar Rahman Abd Al Adheem Ibn Faheem ibn Zia ibn Ma'een (KSA/ Bangalore, India)
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Attached is the scan from Sarfaraz Safdar Khan's book.

In his two massive works, he fails to mention the above words from Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah and uses other words of Ibn Taymiyyah selectively in order to justify hearing of the dead. Then after he establishes them, he justifies the subsequent soofee activities at the graves.

They also fail to mention Ibn Taymiyyah's kalaam on the fabricated hadeeth -

من صلى علي عند قبري سمعته

I have translated this months ago from Silsilah Da'eefah of Shaykh Nasir rahimahullah. His precious words rahimahullah. Insha Allah to be posted soon.


ibnwaheed
07-20-2009 @ 8:17 PM    Notify Admin about this post
unspecified Hassan bin Waheed (Teaneck, NJ, USA)
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Shaykh Al-Fawzaan, in a book with a forward by Shaykh Bin Baaz, refuted one or more writers who alleged that Ibn Taymiyyah said that the dead can hear all the time.

You can find the book, Ar-Radd 'alaa Faisal Muraad Ali Ridhaa Feemaa Katabahu 'An Sha'ni Amwaati Wa Ahwaalihim, here:

http://www.sahab.net/forums/showthread.php?p=711040

The first post has a section called Maktabah Ash-Shaykh Saalih Al-Fawzaan - Al-Isdaar Al-Awwal. The book can be found there.






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