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Topic: Question about Taraweeh???
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 abu.abdurrahman
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Member
Posts: 43
Joined: Sep 2002
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Asalamu Alaykum yaa akhee, Jazaakallahu Khayrin.
One more thing. Isn't the hadeeth about praying in units of two " Aa'am " (General). So it just describes to us the actual performance of the prayer not the specific number. As far as I know was that this doesn't leave the door open for any amount to be prayer. Wa ALLAHU Alam. Please get back on this, and again Jazaakallahu Khayrin for your detailed response.
Was Salaam
Akhook Fil Islaam
Abu Abdurrahman as Salafee al Kanadi
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| abooabdilfattaah
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Member
Posts: 110
Joined: Sep 2002
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As Salaamu 'Alaikum wa Rahmatu Allaah ...
Jazaakumu Allaahu khayran to all of the brothers. This discussion was very helpful and beneficial, maa-shaa'Allaah.
Akhookum,
أبو عبد الفتاح
Aboo 'Abdil-Fattaah
Akhookum,
Aboo 'Abdil-Fattaah
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| mujaahidirlande
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Member
Posts: 73
Joined: Oct 2002
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BarakAllahu fiq
You stated that Shaikh Uthaimeen said "..."And if it is increased to more than eleven rakat, then it is no problem. Because when the Prophet, peace and blessing be upon him, was asked about the tawariya prayer he said,(pray) two, two, and if one of you fears the coming of the morning then pray one rakat, witr for that which you have already prayed. But, to protect that number that is found in the sunna (11 rakat) and to not make a hardship upon the people is better and more complete."
This 'two, two' mentioned in the answer above, how does this constitute evidence that the Prophet extended the prayer beyond eleven?
Isn't it feasible that the two by two entailed the reading of a large number of ayats? The Prophet said
"Whoever prays in a night reciting one hundred verses, he will not be recorded as being heedless"and "Whoever prays in the night reciting two hundred verses, he will be recorded as being from the devoted and sincere"and Umar ordered Ubay bin Ka'ab to lead the people in prayer with eleven rak'aat during Ramadaan, Ubay would recite hundreds of verses to the point that those behind him would have to lean on staffs to support themselves due to the length of the standing. And they would not finish until the opening moments of fajr'.
So the two by two mentioned by the noble shaikh is established but the restriction to eleven is likewise established by the explicit statement of Aa'ishah and the explicit action of Amir-ul-Mu'mineen Umar.
verily the cure for all ignorance is to question.
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| Moosaa
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Member
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sep 2002
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About a month ago, I posed a question to Shaykh Muhammad Umar Baazmool about the number of rak'ahs for taraaweeh, and he discussed the hadeeth: "Mathnaa mathnaa" (two by two, and then the order to make witr when one fears the dawn approaching). He mentioned that this hadeeth is referring to the manner of praying the rak'ahs, not the actual number. The translation of this should be available soon on bakkah.net.
Then I was reminded by 'Alee Yahyaa An-Nahwee that Shaykh Ibn Uthaymeen, may Allaah have Mercy on him, discussed this hadeeth in one of his (recorded) lessons of Ar-Rowdh Al-Murbi', and he said that if the questioner was asking about the hay'ah (outward appearance) of the prayer, ie. he didn't even know that, then it would have been upon the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) to clarify to him the number of rak'ahs as well (if it is truly limited to a set number). So the shaykh concluded that the context of the hadeeth must be that one prays at night, two rak'ahs by two rak'ahs, not limiting himself to a set number, and then he makes witr at the end, min baab owlaa.
And Allaah knows best.
Another point - If we all agreed that the hadeeth of 'Umar establishing 20 rak'ahs is dha'eef, then we still can not run from the fact that the early imaams did not understand that the qiyaam is limited to a set number. And here is a key point in understanding the difference here:
The Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) never prayed more than 13 at night, inside of Ramadhaan or outside of it, but there is no statement from him telling us not to increase upon that number, so:
1) The majority understand that this is like the other acts of the Sunnah where a person takes what the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) did but does not view it as an obligation, so long as there is no qowl, like making wudhoo' for every salaah for example.
2) Some understand that, NO, this is something related directly to the salaah, so then the hadeeth must apply: "Pray as you have seen me praying." ie Since he (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) did not pray more than 13, then we have no grounds to do it.
Another crucial point we need to understand in this case of differing is that it revolves around the tadh'eef of the hadeeth of Umar gathering the people upon 20 rak'ahs. If the hadeeth is authentic, and it seems that the majority of the early imaams viewed it likewise, then it is a proof that praying 20 is the Sunnah, since 'Umar was from the khulafaa' raashideen, and the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) said, "'Alaykum bi sunnatee was sunnatil-khulafaa'ir-raashideen mim ba'dee..." the hadeeth of al-'Irbaadh, (Hold to my Sunnah, and the Sunnah of the rightly guided successors after me...)
And if the hadeeth is dha'eef, then the other two issues (above) remain.
And we do not say that since Al-Albaanee declared the hadeeth to be dha'eef, that it is dha'eef beyond doubt and anyone who opposes that is opposing the Sunnah, for this would be elevating his status higher than the imaams that preceded him, may Allaah have Mercy on all of them.
So these three points seem to be the focus of the khilaaf: (1) whether the hadeeth mathnaa mathnaa means the number or the hay'ah; (2) whether the number is restricted because it is part of prayer that must be done just as the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) did it or not; (3) whether the report of Umar is authentic or not.
So if a person wanted to research this issue properly and objectively, and come to the proper conclusion, he could not avoid investigating these three issues by gathering the statements of the early imaams of the Salaf from their sources about them, and making i'tibaar of the hadeeth of 'Umar and studying the chains of the different routes.
But if a person is not able to investigate at least these three matters with an objective approach, then he may take the statement of a scholar known for his knowledge and righteousness, and there is no blame on him in doing that.
And Allaah knows best.
Moosaa
PS - I myself do not pray more than 13, and I think Imaam Al-Albaanee's argument in this issue is brilliant and very insightful. However, since what he has said represents a minority opinion, so much so that there has been ijmaa' claimed by some of the scholars that there is no set number, I only write these posts hoping that my brothers and sisters in Islaam will understand that to force the people to take the position of Imaam Al-Albaanee, and to make walaa' and baraa' based on it, and to negate and affirm the people's salafiyyah based on it, this can not be our way. I am not saying anyone on this board has done this, but I know of people who have actually done this, so it is a danger we need to be warned about, and Allaah knows best.
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سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك
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| rasheed.b
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Member
Posts: 187
Joined: Sep 2002
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الفصل الخامس
في التراويـــــح
التراويح: قيام الليل جماعة في رمضان، ووقتها من بعد العشاء إلى طلوع الفجر، وقد رغَّب النبي صلى الله عليه وسلّم في قيام رمضان حيث قال: «من قام رمضان إيماناً واحتساباً غفر له ما تقدم من ذنبه». وفي صحيح البخاري عن عائشة ـ رضي الله عنها ـ أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلّم قام ذات ليلة في المسجد فصلى بصلاته ناس، ثم صلى من القابلة فكثر الناس ثم اجتمعوا من الليلة الثالثة أو الرابعة فلم يخرج إليهم، فلمَّا أصبح قال: «قد رأيت ما صنعتم فلم يمنعني من الخروج إليكم إلا أني خشيت أن تُفرَض عليكم». وذلك في رمضان.
والسُّنَّة أن يقتصر على إحدى عشرة ركعة، يسلِّم من كل ركعتين؛ لأن عائشة رضي الله عنها سئلت كيف كانت صلاة النبي صلى الله عليه وسلّم في رمضان؟ فقالت: «ما كان يزيد في رمضان ولا في غيره على إحدى عشرة ركعة» متفق عليه. وفي الموطأ عن محمد بن يوسف ـ وهو ثقة ثبت ـ عن السائب بن يزيد ـ وهو صحابي ـ أن عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه أمر أُبي بن كعب وتميماً الداري أن يقوما للناس بإحدى عشرة ركعة.
وإن زاد على إحدى عشرة ركعة فلا حرج؛ لأن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلّم سُئِل عن قيام الليل فقال: «مثنى مثنى فإذا خشي أحدكم الصبح صلَّى ركعة واحدة توتر له ما قد صلَّى» أخرجاه في الصحيحين، لكن المحافظة على العدد الذي جاءت به السُّنَّة مع التأنِّي والتطويل الذي لا يشق على الناس أفضل وأكمل.
وأما ما يفعل بعض الناس من الإسراع المفرط فإنه خلاف المشروع، فإن أدَّى إلى الإخلال بواجب أو ركن كان مبطلاً للصلاة.
وكثير من الأئمة: لا يتأنَّى في صلاة التراويح وهذا خطأ منهم، فإن الإمام لا يصلي لنفسه فقط، وإنما يصلي لنفسه ولغيره، فهو كالولي يجب عليه فعل الأصلح، وقد ذكر أهل العلم أنه يكره للإمام أن يسرع سرعة تمنع المأمومين فعل ما يجب.
وينبغي للناس أن يحرصوا على إقامة هذه التراويح، وأن لا يضيِّعوها بالذهاب من مسجد إلى مسجد، فإن مَن قام مع الإمام حتى ينصرف كُتب له قيام ليلة وإن نام بعد على فراشه.
The above is from the web site of Sheik Uthamin. In the third paragraph he says..."And if it is increased to more than eleven rakat, then it is no problem. Because when the Prophet, peace and blessing be upon him, was asked about the tawariya prayer he said,(pray) two, two, and if one of you fears the coming of the morning then pray one rakat, witr for that which you have already prayed. But, to protect that number that is found in the sunna (11 rakat) and to not make a hardship upon the people is better and more complete.
abu layla rasheed
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| mujaahidirlande
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Member
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Joined: Oct 2002
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THE NIGHT PRAYER IN RAMADAAN by Imaam Muhammad Naasir-ud-Deen Al-Albaanee
The Number of rak?aat in the Night Prayer
The number of rak?aat in the Night Prayer is eleven. We prefer this number not be increased or added to, following the example of Allah?s messanger (sallahu alayhi was sallam), for indeed he did not go beyond this number until he parted from this world. ?Aa?ishah ( radyAllahu ?anhaa) was asked about the Prophet?s Night Prayer during Ramadhan, so she responded by saying:
?Allah?s Messenger would not perform more than eleven rak?aat (for the night prayer) in Ramadaan or out of it. He would pray four rak?aat, but do not ask about how fine or long they were. Then he prayed another four rak?aat, but do not ask about how fine or long they were. Then he would pray three rak?aat?(1)
One may subtract from this number even to the point where he lowers it to just one rak?ah for Witr. This is based on evidence found in the Prophet?s action and statement:
As for his action, ?Aa?ishah was asked concering how many rak?aat Allah?s Messenger would perform for Witr, so she replied:
?He would perform Witr with four rak?aat(2) and then three, with six rak?aat and then three, and with ten rak?aat and then three. He would not perform Witr with less than seven rak?aat or with more than thirteen rak?aat.? (3)
As for his statement, then it is his saying:
?Witr is true. So whoever wishes then let him perform Witr with five rak?aat. And whoever wishes let him perform Witr with three rak?aat. And whoever wishes then let him perform Witr with one rak?ah.? (4)
[End of Chapter]
Additional evidence for not exceeding eleven rak?aat
1. Jaabir Ibn 'Abdullah agreed with 'Aa'ishah , he said: " When the Prophet prayed with the people one night during Ramadaan he prayed eight raka'at and then made Witr." [Ibn Hibbaan].
2. Umar commanded the people to Pray Eleven Raka?at as was the practice of the Messenger : As-saib Bin Yazid said :? Umar Bin al-Khattaab Commanded Ubayy Bin Ka?b and Tamim ad-daari to Lead the People in Qiyam with ?Eleven Raka?ah?
(1) Reported by Al Bukharee, Muslim and others, and it has been referenced in Salaat-ut-Taraaweeh (20-21) and Saheeh Abee Dawood (1212).
(2)I say: This includes the two sunnah rak?aat performed after ?Ishaa or the two short rak?aat the Prophet used to begin his Night Prayer with. This is based on Al Haafidh Ibn Hajr?s opinion. See Salaat-ut-Taraaweeh
(3)Reported by Abu Dawood, Ahmad and others. It?s chain of narration is good and Al?Iraaqee declared it authentic. I have referenced it in Salaat-ut-Taraaweeh (pg.98-99) and in saheeh Abee Dawood (1233).
(4)Reported by At-Tahaawee, Al-Haakim and others. Its chain of narration is authentic, as has been stated by a group of scholars. It has a supporting evidence, which has a rejected addition to it, as I explained in salaat-ut-Taraaweeh.
verily the cure for all ignorance is to question.
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| Moosaa
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Member
Posts: 1280
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(and my version of At-Tamheed is the BEAUTIFUL MAFAHRAS printing from AL-FAAROOQ AL-HADEETHAH in Egypt, 18 volumes, second printing, 1422)
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سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك
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| Moosaa
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Member
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sep 2002
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Bismillaahi was-salaatu was-salaamu 'alaa rasoolillaah, wa 'alaa aalihi wa sahbihi, ammaa ba'd:
Shaykh Al-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah, may Allaah have Mercy on him, said:
"...The most virtuous (choice of the number of rak'ahs) is subject to the situation of the people.
If they are able to pray long rak'aat, then 10 rak'ahs followed by three is best, as the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) used to do himself in Ramadhaan and outside of Ramadhaan.
But if they are not able to stand for long periods of time, then praying 20 rak'ahs is best, and it is that which most of the Muslims perform, as it is a middle course between 10 and 40. [1]
And if they prayed 40 rak'ahs or the likes, then that is permissible, and there is nothing about that to be disliked. And this statement has been reported from more than one of the imaams, like Ahmad and others.
And whoever believes that the night prayers of Ramadhaan have been restricted by the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam), and that one may not add to it or take away from it, then he has been mistaken..." [2]
And Ibn Abdil-Barr, may Allaah have Mercy on him, claimed that there is ijmaa' (scholarly concensus) about there not being a limit to the number of rak'ahs:
"...And there is no difference of opinion among the Muslims that the night prayers do not have a limit (to the number of rak'ahs prayed) [3], and that it is optional, a good deed and a righteous action, so whoever desires let him pray a little, and whoever desires let him pray a lot..." [4]
And Allaah knows best.
Moosaa
FOOTNOTES:
[1] 40 is mentioned here since the early imaams prayed such large numbers, like Maalik who chose 39, and Ahmad who chose 40+, Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, and others. See At-Tamheed 4/97.
[2] Majmoo' Al-Fataawaa 22/272
[3] To summarize and support this claim of ijmaa', here is what seven of the imaams of the greatest math-thabs have said (these numbers do not include the witr)
Sufyaan Ath-Thawree: 20
'Abdullaah ibn Al-Mubaarak: 20
Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh: 40
Aboo Haneefah: 20
Maalik: 36
Ash-Shaafi'ee: 20
Ahmad: 40+
[4] At-Tamheed 4/151
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سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك
This message was edited by Moosaa on 11-14-02 @ 3:36 PM
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| abu.abdurrahman
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Member
Posts: 43
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Asalamu Alaykum wa Ramatullahee wa Barakatuhu,
Where I live basically all the masaajids pray twenty and don't follow the sunnah in this regard. I can't always get to the masaajids that do pray 8 and 3 witr as it is far from my house. When I go to the masjid that prays 20, I just pray 8 and leave and then pray witr before I go to bed or when I get home. I'm aware of the hadeeth about, if you pray with the imam until he finishes then it is as though you have prayed all night. But how can this hadeeth apply to cooperating in a bidah?? I have asked this before and this was the response I got and I wasn't content with it in my heart as I feel I can't cooperate in a bidah and expect that ALLAH Azza wa jall will reward me for this. If someone can shed some light on this situation and clear this up for me Inshaa'ALLAH. Jazaakumullaahu Khayrin.
Was Salaam
Akhook Fil Islaam
Abu Abdurrahman as Salafee al Kanadi
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16-11-2002 @ 12:00 AM
14-11-2002 @ 12:00 AM
14-11-2002 @ 12:00 AM