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Topic: Saying of surah al- Fatiha in loud prayers
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 AbuAbbasAlBukhariy
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Member
Posts: 154
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Assalamu 'alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuh
Issue of saying surah al-fatiha in loud prayers behind Imam confusing me as there is difference of opinion about that.
Can someone post if they have view of Shaykh Bin Baz and Shaykh Bin Uthaymeen about that with proofs.
I know view of Shaykh Al-Albanee rahimahullah which is we do not need to recite and it is abrogated but if imam is becomes silent after reciting fatiha then we must say it or if we do not hear voice of Imaam.
But i hear from some brothers who r studying in Madina and they seems asked some students of knowledge and some scholars said hadeeth about abrogation is not sahih...because that hadeeth says Abu Hurayra said about abrogation but Abu Hurayra's view is that we should recite Surah Fatiha at all times...so this is contradiction..
It would be nice if someone who has knowledge of it from our scholars would post both opinions to clarify the issue
Jazakallah Khayr.
wa'alaykum salam
Abu Abbas
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| AliSomaniAlKanadee
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This message was edited by alykhan.somani on 1-14-07 @ 12:41 AM
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| ekbal.hussain
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Assalamu alaikum,
Yaa Akhi Ali, the position of Imam Al-Albani(rahmahullah), is found in the book "Prophet's Prayer Described" pages 22-24, with the adillah inshallah.
The book is published by 'Jamiat ihya Minhaj us Sunnah'.
Just a word of caution though, I mentioned the publisher so that you recognise which book I am talking about, however I am not in any way recommending them to you. J.I.M.A.S are a well known vile Hizbi organisation and there devaition is well known to the salafiyoon. Ask one of the Tulab ul ilm, on this forum to find out more.
But alhamdulillah the contents of this particular translation of Shaikh Al-Albani's work is Saheeh inshallah, so don't worry about that.
Hope that's enough information. Barrak Allahu feek.
Wassalam
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| AliSomaniAlKanadee
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This message was edited by alykhan.somani on 1-14-07 @ 12:42 AM
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| aqeel.walker
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Member
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This was in Fataawaa Muhimmah tata'allaqu bis-Salaah, a short compilation of Fataawaa concerning the prayer by Shaikh Ibn Baaz (rahimahullaah)
Question 38: The opinions of the scholars have differed concerning the recitation of one who is being led (in prayer) behind the Imaam (prayer leader). So what is the correct position concerning this? Is it obligatory for him (the person being led) to recite Al-Faatihah? And when should he recite it if the Imaam does not observe silence to allow the followers to recite it? And is it legislated for the Imaam to observe silence after he recites the Faatihah to allow the followers an opportunity to recite the Faatihah?
Answer: The correct position is that it is obligatory for the followers to recite the Faatihah in all of their prayers, whether it is a silent prayer or a prayer said aloud. This is based upon the generality of the Prophet's (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) statement:
"There is no pryaer for whoever does not recite the Faatihah of the Book." (Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim)
This hadeeth is agreed upon as being authentic.
Also due to the Prophet's (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) statement:
"Do you all recite behind your Imaam?" We (the companions) replied, "Yes." Then he (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said, "Do not do that except with the Faatihah of the Book. For verily there is no Salaah for the one who does not recite it."
This was reported by Imaam Ahmad with a Saheeh chain of narration.
The legislation concerning this is that one recites it (Al-Faatihah) during the time when the Imaam is silent. And if the Imaam does not observe a (period of) silence, then the person should recite even if the Imaam is reciting, then (after Faatihah) he should listen (to the Imaam's recital). This exception is due to the general evidences which show that it is obligatory to listen attentively to the recital of the Imaam. However, if the person being led forgets the Faatihah, or he leaves it out due to ignorance, or he believes it to be non-obligatory, then there is no sin upon him. According to the majority of the people of knowledge, the recitation of the Imaam will be sufficient for him.
Likewise is the situation when the person comes to join the prayer while the Imaam is bowing (in Rukoo'). He bows along with the Imaam and his unit of prayer is considered complete with the Imaam's. He also does not recite the Faatihah in this situation even though he did not catch the Imaam's recital of it. This is due to what has been confirmed in the hadeeth of Abee Bakrah Ath-Thaqafee (radhiyallaahu 'anhu), that he came to the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) while he was bowing (in prayer), so Abee Bakrah bowed outside of the row, then he entered the row (after having already bowed). So when the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) made the Tasleem to conclude the prayer, he said to Abee Bakrah, "May Allaah increase you in zeal, but do not do this again." And the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) did not command him to make up that Rak'ah. This was reported by Al-Bukhaaree in the Saheeh.
The meaning of the Prophet's (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) statement, "Do not do this again", is that you should not repeat the act of bowing outside of the row. From this it is known that the legislation for one who enters the Masjid while the Imaam is bowing, is that he does not bow (in Rukoo') before he reaches the prayer row. To the contrary, he should wait until he joins the row, even if he misses the bowing (Rukoo'). This is because of the Prophet's (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) statement:
"When you come to the prayer, come walking, and you should do so in a calm manner, and what you catch of the prayer, pray it. And whatever you missed, complete it." (Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim)
This hadeeth is agreed upon as being authentic.
Concerning the hadeeth:
"Whoever has an Imaam, then the Imaam's recitation is his recitation."
This is a weak hadeeth and the people of knowledge do not use it as a proof. Also, even if this hadeeth was authentic, verily the Faatihah is an exception from that, in combining the understanding of the two hadeeths.
Concerning the act of pausing for silence after the Faatihah, there is nothing authentic narrated concerning it, as far as I know. Yet, this a broad issue, if Allaah wills. Thus, whoever does this (pauses after the Faatihah) then there is no problem with that, and whoever does not pause, there is also no problem with that as well. Nothing has been confirmed from the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) concerning this matter, as far as I know. There are only two periods of silence confirmed as being observed by the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam). One of them is after the opening Takbeer, in which it is legislated that one says the supplications to begin the prayer. The second silence is after one completes the recitation and before he bows. This is a short period of silence that separates the recital and the Takbeer. And Allaah is the Giver of success.
Al-Imaam 'Abdul-'Azeez bin Baaz (rahimahullaah)
Source: Fataawaa Muhimmah Tata'allaqu bis-Salaah, pg.59-61, Question #38.
Translated by Aqeel Walker
قال الشيخ ابن باز الطائفة المنصورة هي الفرقة الناجية هما واحدة هم أهل السنة و الجماعة و هم السلفيون
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| AliSomaniAlKanadee
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This message was edited by alykhan.somani on 1-14-07 @ 12:42 AM
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| AbuAbbasAlBukhariy
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Assalamu 'alaykum wa Rahmatullah
Jazakallah Khayr Akhee Aqeel Walker.
Akhee Ali view of Shaykh Al-Albanee rahimahullah is this:
He had given permission for those being led by the Imaam to recite Soorah al-Faatihah in the loud prayers, when once:
"he was praying Fajr and the recitation became difficult for him. When he finished, he said: Perhaps you recite behind your imaam. We said: "Yes, quickly139, O Messenger of Allaah." He said: Do not do so, except for [each of you reciting] the opening chapter of the Book, for the prayer is not valid of the one who does not recite it.Bukhaari in his pamphlet, Abu Daawood & Ahmad. Tirmidhi & Daaraqutni declared it hasan.
Later, he forbade them from reciting in the loud prayers at all, when:
"He finished a prayer in which he was reciting loudly (in one narration: it was the dawn prayer) and said: Were any of you reciting with me just now?! A man said: "Yes, I was, O Messenger of Allaah". He said: I say, why am I contended with? [Abu Hurairah said:] So the people stopped reciting with the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) when he was reciting loudly after hearing that from him [but they recited to themselves quietly when the imaam was not reciting loudly]."Maalik, Humaidi, Bukhaari in his pamphlet, Abu Daawood & Mahaamali (6/139/1). Tirmidhi declared it hasan; Abu Haatim ar-Raazi, Ibn Hibbaan & Ibn Qayyim declared it saheeh.
He also made silence during the imaam's recitation part of the completeness of following the imaam, saying: The imaam is there to be followed, so when he says takbeer, say takbeer, and when he recites, be silent(Ibn Abi Shaibah (1/97/1), Abu Daawood, Muslim, Abu `Awaanah & Ruwayaani in his musnad (24/119/1). It is given in Irwaa' (332, 394). ), just as he made listening to the imaam's recitation enough to not have to recite behind him, saying: He who has an imaam, then the recitation of the imaam is recitation for him(143 Ibn Abi Shaibah (1/97/1), Daaraqutni, Ibn Maajah, Tahaawi & Ahmad from numerous routes, musnad and mursal. Shaikh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah declared it strong, as in al-Furoo` of Ibn `Abdul Haadi (48/2). Boosayri declared some of its isnaads saheeh. I have discussed it in detail and investigated its routes of narration inthe manuscript version and then in Irwaa' al-Ghaleel (no. 500)
) - this applying in the loud prayers.
The people of knowledge, both past and present, have differed regarding recitation behind the imaam, taking one of three views:
1.That recitation in loud and quiet prayers is obligatory.
2.That silence in loud and quiet prayers is obligatory.
3. That there be recitation in quiet, but not in loud, prayers.
This last view is the most balanced and closest to the truth, for in it, all the evidences can be accommodated such that none of them is rejected totally. It is the view of Maalik and Ahmad, and has also been prefered after analysis by some Hanafis, including Abul Hasanaat al-Luknawi in his aforementioned book.
Shaykh Al-Albanee also says when Imam becomes silent after reciting surah Fatiha then we must say Surah Fatiha(also said it is not sunnah to be silent) and also if we do not hear recitation of Imam then we should say it...
and Allaah knows best
wa'alaykum salam
Abu Abbas.
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| AliSomaniAlKanadee
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| AbuAbbasAlBukhariy
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Member
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Assalamu 'alaykum wa Rahmatullah
Akhee Aqeel I did not understand this saying of Shaykh Bin Baz rahimahullah:
"The legislation concerning this is that one recites it (Al-Faatihah) during the time when the Imaam
is silent. And if the Imaam does not observe a (period of) silence, then the person should recite
even if the Imaam is reciting, then (after Faatihah) he should listen (to the Imaam's recital). This
exception is due to the general evidences which show that it is obligatory to listen attentively to
the recital of the Imaam."
Does this mean that we should recite Fatiha after Imam finishes saying Fatiha or when?
So according to Shaykh Bin Baz...general ruling is that when quran recited we should be silent but saying of surah Fatiha is exception. did i understand correctly??
wa'alaykum salam
Abu Abbas
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| aqeel.walker
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wa 'alaykumus-salaam wa rahmatullaah
Yes, I think you understood it correctly. If the Imaam pauses in silence, then you recite when he's silent. If he does not do so, you recite it (al-Faatihah) even while he's reciting. Then after you recite al-Faatihah, you must be silent and pay attention to the Imaam's recital. This is what I understood from it too, and Allaah knows best.
Baarakallaahu feek akhee
was-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaah.
Aqeel
قال الشيخ ابن باز الطائفة المنصورة هي الفرقة الناجية هما واحدة هم أهل السنة و الجماعة و هم السلفيون
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| roshdy.majdoub
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Member
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AbuAbbasAlBukhariy wrote:
"Shaykh Al-Albanee also says when Imam becomes silent after reciting surah Fatiha then we must say Surah Fatiha(also said it is not sunnah to be silent) and also if we do not hear recitation of Imam then we should say it..."
This is not in Sifat Salaat-un nabi, could u tell me where u got it from? In sifat salaat-un nabi he indicates the the recitation of the imam is enough....
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| AbuAbbasAlBukhariy
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Assalamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah
I read it from The Abridgement of the Prophet's Prayer Described
The Shaikh, the Imaam, the Allaamah, the Muhaddith, Muhammad Naasirud-Deen al-Albaanee. Not from the main book.
wa'alaykum salam
AbuAbbas
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| roshdy.majdoub
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Wa 'alaykum sallaam wa rahmatullah,
Jazakallahulkhayr,
I've managed to track down the abridged version in which the shaykh(Rahimahullah) states:
"(54) It is obligatory that the one praying behind an imaam also
recites it in quiet Prayers. He should also recite it in loud Prayers if
he cannot hear an imaam reciting, or if it happens that the imaam
remains silent after his own recitation in order to enable the
follower to recite it. However, it is our view that this period of
silence is not established from the Sunnah."
However it is noted that the Shaykh(Rahimahullah) regards it as Obligatory and not a Rukn. The shaykh(Rahimahullah) defined an obligation earlier in the book as:
"The obligation (waajib) is that which has an established command
in the Book or the Sunnah, but there is no proof that it is a pillar
(rukn) or a condition (shart). One who carries it out is rewarded,
and one who leaves it without valid excuse is punished........"
Wa sallaamu'alaykum...
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| abdulilah
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The new book recently out by Sheikh Muhammad Omar Bazmool called 'at-Tarjeeh fi masaail at-Tahaara wa Salaat' p.196-215. See section on reading faatihah behind the Imam. It shows that it is obligatory even in the loud prayers. Here is a glimpse into the evidence:
1. The first is the hadeeth, "There is no prayer for the one who does not read the mother of the Qur'an" Saheeh al Bukhaaree.
2. The hadeeth in Saheeh Muslim where the Messenger sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam said "whoever prays a prayer where he does not recite in it the umm al Qur'an (faatiha) then it is premature (3 times) not complete" it was said to Abu Hurayrah "but we are behind the Imaam (so how can we recite it)?' so Abu Hurayrah said "recite it to yourself for i heard the Messenger sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam say Allaah say: I have split the Prayer between Myself and My servant..."
3. Imam Tirmidhee said "most of the people of knowledge from the companions of the Messenger sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam and the tabi'een and those after them saw it to do the recitation behind the Imam and Maalik ibn Anas says it along with Abdullaah ibn Mubaarak, Shaaf'ee, Ahmed and Ishaaq." [see Tirmidhee under hadeeth 312].
4. As for being quiet and attentive when the Quran is recited as in Soorah 'Araaf:204 then this verse is general and one is quiet when the Imam is reciting other than in Soorah al Faatihah (as in the hadeeth of Ubaadah ibn Saamit). From Another angle repeating faatihah behind the Imam does not mean that one is not silent since Imam Baihaqee says " being attentive could mean not to speak loudly even if the one who is attentive is also remembering Allaah or reading the Qur'an, there is no difference between being silent and attentive with the Arabs and Abu Hurayrah said to the Messenger sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam "what do you say in your SILENCE between the Takbeer and recitation?" And the Messenger sallallaahu 'laihi wa sallam did not say i am not silent but he taught him what he said during his silence." ('qiraa'a khalf al imaam'p.123, see Fath 2/227, Ta'leeq al Mughnee 1/330)
This is just a glimpse into the strongest position and Allaah knows best.
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| roshdy.majdoub
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I am not trying to prolong the discussion just for the sake of it, but in point 3 of what you posted it states:
"3. Imam Tirmidhee said "most of the people of knowledge from the companions of the Messenger sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam and the tabi'een and those after them saw it to do the recitation behind the Imam and Maalik ibn Anas says it along with Abdullaah ibn Mubaarak, Shaaf'ee, Ahmed and Ishaaq." [see Tirmidhee under hadeeth 312]."
In Shaykh Al-Albaanee's book(rahimahullah) it states:
"The view of the validity of recitation behind the imaam in quiet but not loud prayers was taken by Imaam Shaafi`i initially, and by Muhammad the student of Abu Haneefah in a narration from him which was preferred by Shaikh `Ali al-Qaari and other shaikhs of the madhhab; it was also the position of, among others, the Imaams Zuhri, Maalik, Ibn al-Mubaarak, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, several of the muhadditheen, and it is the preference of Shaikh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah. "
They both have some of the same names. Above it looks like their general opinion, and the second paragraph their specific opinion with regards to loud prayers.
WAllaahua'lam.....
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| ummmusa88
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Asalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakaatuh,
Regarding this statement/hadith:
"...Abee Bakrah Ath-Thaqafee (radhiyallaahu 'anhu), that he came to the
Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) while he was bowing (in prayer), so
Abee Bakrah bowed outside of the row, then he entered the row (after having
already bowed). So when the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) made
the Tasleem to conclude the prayer, he said to Abee Bakrah, "May Allaah
increase you in zeal, but do not do this again." And the Prophet
(sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) did not command him to make up that Rak'ah.
This was reported by Al-Bukhaaree in the Saheeh"
I am confused, because there are two other statements that I read in a book
on Fiqh, in which this hadeeth was mentioned, but then it was mentioned
that:
"...Ibn Az-Zubayr [said] while on the pulpit, "If one of you comes to the
mosque and the people are bowing, he should bow and walk while bowing until
he reaches the row. This is the Sunnah" (The chain of this report is
saheeh. See Shaykh al-Albaani, Silsilat al-Ahaadeeth as-Saheehah, no. 229)
Another narration is also mentioned in which Ibn Masud radiAllahu anh did
the same (Same ref. as above, vol. 2, p52 - Recorded by al-Bayhaqi)
Can someone please clarify this issue then, is it or is it not permissible
to bow before reaching the row and walk up to the row to catch the raka'a?
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| Abdul-Muqeet
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As Salaamu Alaikum<
What about saying Ameen? Should Ameen be recited twice when I the person recites to myself then after the Imam says Ameen?
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05-12-2002 @ 12:00 AM
