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Topic: Sisters Swimming
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 Hanif.Irfan
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Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Apr 2003
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As salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu,
Insha Allah someone of Ilm can address this question that my wife has put forward.
Summer is approaching. There's a disagreement with sisters saying we can and some saying we cannot go to the swimming pool. My question is under what conditions can a sister go swimming? I would like to go swimming, but I don't know of any daleel supporting this opinion and because of the following I have stood against it and feel that we cannot.
Allah says in the noble Qur'aan:
And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance, and perform As-Salât (IqamâtasSalât), and give Zakât and obey Allâh and His Messenger. Allâh wishes only to remove ArRijs (evil deeds and sins, etc.) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam)), and to purify you with a thorough purification. (Al-Ahzab 33:33)
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islâm), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allâh to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful. (An-Nur 24:31)
Reading this ayat, it seems like the life guards would have to be Muslim, Allahu aleem if there are swimming pools in the west with Muslims as life guards. Since the noble ayat says, and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islâm), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess"
The other concern I have about swimming is regarding the awrah, what would we wear? How do we not show off our shapes after getting out of the water, because our clothes will be sticking to our skin from them being wet? What about the Locker rooms?
I've Taken this from The Righteous Path
The awrah of the Muslim woman amongst Muslim women
Compiled By :Abu Aqeela
Translated By : Abu Aqeela
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All praises to Allah, we praise Him and seek His Aid and His Forgiveness, we seek refuge in Allah from the evils of our own selves and from the evils of our actions. I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah having no partners and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Slave and Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him)
To proceed:
That which you have before you is an attempt to bring about some clarity in regards to the issue of the Awrah of the Muslim Woman amongst Muslim women & the Dancing of women (at gatherings such as Eid, Weddings,etc).
You will find within this short treatise, selective fataawa in regards to these two issues. It has also been separated in to two parts.
The awrah of the Muslim woman amongst Muslim women.
This section consists of the kalaam of our shaykh, Saalih ibn Foazaan ibn Abdullah al Foazaan(may Allah preserve him) in form of questions and answers (fataawa).
Allah subhaanahu wa ta aala says in in His Book:
...and not to reveal their adornments except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islaam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful.Suratun-Nur 31
>From that which has been highlighted in the forementioned ayah it is permissible for the believing women to reveal their adorments (those areas of adorments eg. the likes of the face,hair,neck,forearm & lower shin. wallahu aalum) amongst believing women, or female slaves or children who have no sense of same or sex.
The question however now arises in regards to the type of clothing worn in these situations from that which is suitable and allowed.
In this regard several questions were asked to Shaykh Saalih ibn Foazaan ibn Abdullah al Foazaan (May Allah preserve him) :
Question Many women hold an opinion regarding the awrah of a woman infront of another woman is that which is between the navel and the knee. So some of them do not hesistate to wear clothing that very tight or open revealing large portions of the chest and arms. What do you say concerning them?
Answer.What is required from the muslim women is modesty and shyness, and that she should be a good example to her muslim sisters,and she shouldnot expose to them except that which is considered normal/befitting for/of righteous muslim women to show amongst themselves. This is what is initially upon them and is safest for indeed being unattentive and laxed in exposing that which there is no need to expose could lead to further unattentiveness and carelessness hence leading to that which is forbidden. wa Allahu aalum (and Allah knows best) [1]
Question Does a woman wearin tight clothes infront of other women come under the hadeeth ((...women who will be clothed yet naked...))?
Answer.There is no doubt that the wearing of tight clothes which reveal the alluring parts of the body is something not permissible, not permissible except for wearing it for her husband only. As for infront of other than her husband then it is not permissible.Even if there is only women present because she will represent as a bad example for them.When they see her doing so they may follow her in it. Also she has been ordered to cover her awrah with that which is loose and a be covered in front of everyone except her husband. So she covers her awrah in front of other women as she does in front of men except that which is considered normal and befitting of her to show amongst other women like the face, hands,feet and that which there is a need to uncover/reveal..[2]
Question What is the ruling concerning the wearing of clothes which are see thru or tight to the extent that it reveals her bodily parts?
Answer.It is obligatory upon the women that their clothing is not of the likes that it is so thin that the colour of the skin may be seen thru it, neither that it is so tight as to reveal the shape of her bodily parts this is because the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) said : ((Two types of people from the inhabitants of hellfire i have not yet seen: Women covered yet uncovered when they walk they swing their sides/hips, upon their heads resemble the humps of camels they will not enter al jannah nor will they find its scent, and men who have with them whips resembling the tails of cows with them they beat the slave of Allah))[3]
Shaykh ul Islaam ibn Taimiya - may Allah have mercy upon him- in Maj'moo al fataawaa says regarding the staetment of the messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) ((...covered but uncovered...)) means the wearing of clothes that doesnot cover her so she is clothed but in reality she is naked, like the woman who wears clothing which is thin so as to show her skin or clothing which is tight which clings revealing her bodily parts for example her posterior or the thigh or the likes. Truly the clothing of a woman is that which covers her not showing the shape of her limbs or more than that becuse it is that which is loose and non transparent. [ 4]
What has preceeded, is some of the fatwaa given by shaykh Saalih al Faozaan -may Allah preserve him- pretaining to the attire of muslim women amongst muslim women hopefully bringing some clarity to this affair. However for one to hold the opinion that the awrah of the muslim woman amongst muslim women is that which is between the navel and the knee then from that which is upon them is:
firstly ,to present evidence in this regard and a presidence for this opinion from ahul Ilm.
secondly to acknowledge that holding the opinion that the awrah is of such (between women) would illiminate such clothing such as 'hipsters' or 'stretch jeans' or the likes as the shape of the bodily parts can clearly be seen and there for is not permissible, as explained by the shaykh may Allah preserve him.
Footnotes:
1 al muntaqaa min fataawa vol.3 p307 #453
2 al muntaqaa min fataawa vol.3 p307 #454
3 please refer to an english translation of saheeh muslim for a more precise translation of the hadeeth.
4 al fataawa al jaamatu li Imra'atul muslima vol.3 p845 #763.
Insha Allâh you can provide me with clarity on this issue, and if we can do it I'd like to advise my sisters to fear Allâh and not delay the salat do to this amusement. I've experienced when it's time to offer salat, sisters will continue to do what they are doing. Allâh says:
Wealth and children are the adornment of the life of this world. But the good righteous deeds (five compulsory prayers, deeds of Allâh's obedience, good and nice talk, remembrance of Allâh with glorification, praises and thanks, etc.) that last, are better with your lord for rewards and better in respect of hope. (Al-Kahf 18:46)
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك
Hanif Irfan Diaab Toyer
Al-Fudayl ibn `Ayyad said: "Man's fear of Allah is equal to his knowledge of Him and his renunciation of worldly pleasures is equal to his desire in the Hereaf
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| Hanif.Irfan
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Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Apr 2003
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Al-Hamdulillah wa salatu wa salamu ala Rasulullah
Amma ba'du;
As salaamu alaikum wa rahmatulillahi wa barakatu,
Barakallahu feeki for posing this question to those with knowledge. My wife and I want to say Jazaakallaahu Khairan for facilitating the answer and the Mashayk for their rulings.
كتاب الإيمان (The Book of Faith)
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No. 49 - Narrated An-Nu'man bin Bashir:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'Both legal and illegal things are evident but in between them there are doubtful (suspicious) things and most of the people have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himself from these suspicious things saves his religion and his honor. And whoever indulges in these suspicious things is like a shepherd who grazes (his animals) near the Hima (private pasture) of someone else and at any moment he is liable to get in it. (O people!) Beware! Every king has a Hima and the Hima of Allah on the earth is His illegal (forbidden) things. Beware! There is a piece of flesh in the body if it becomes good (reformed) the whole body becomes good but if it gets spoilt the whole body gets spoilt and that is the heart.
حدثنا أبو نعيم حدثنا زكريا عن عامر قال سمعت النعمان بن بشير يقول سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول الحلال بين والحرام بين وبينهما مشبهات لا يعلمها كثير من الناس فمن اتقي المشبهات استبرأ لدينه وعرضه ومن وقع في الشبهات كراع يرعى حول الحمى يوشك أن يواقعه ألا وإن لكل ملك حمى ألا إن حمى الله في أرضه محارمه ألا وإن في الجسد مضغة إذا صلحت صلح الجسد كله وإذا فسدت فسد الجسد كله ألا وهي القلب
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلاَّ رِجَالاً نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ فَاسْأَلُواْ أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ
Hanif
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| abu.bilal
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Member
Posts: 30
Joined: Sep 2002
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ASalaamu alaikum, Ma'shallah, it is good that the sisters are showing concern in these affairs.. May Allah increse you in this ameen.
I do however, have a question, you had stated:
"...In the meanwhile, since we wanted to know the answer, we called the noble and learned Shaikh `Ubaid bin Abdullaah Al-Jaabiree ....."
and then Umm Abdillah's response:
.."Nonetheless, when Umm Abdillaah got back to us, she informed us that Shaikh Yahya Al-Hajooree said that as long as there are no haraam activities."
Correct me if I am wrong, inshallah.. Is Shaikh `Ubaid, not from the Kibaar Ulema and Shaikh Yahya Al-Hajooree from the Tulaabul Ilm? So which is the correct 'opinion'?
Finally, was Umm Abdillah (may Allah preserve her) notified of Shaikh `Ubaid's point(s) made?
Barakallahu feekum
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| bint.umar
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Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
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As-salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh.
I am in need of clarification on some of what I have read in the previous post.
This topic has been in my head for a long time.
Sis. "Stranger", I hope you will take it upon yourself to ask these questions if you are in a position to do so.
In the hadith of Aaisha (radiallaahu 'anhaa) the "public baths" were mentioned.
What exactly were these "public baths"? Were they just places that the women went to clean themselves?
The reason I am asking is because if they were just places that women went to clean themselves or to take a bath, then would this undressing count as the undressing of "displaying or showing off ones beauty"?
If the "public baths" were not places of the showing off or displaying the beauty then they would just be places that women undressed outside of their homes.
If they were just places that women undressed outside of there homes then it seems as though Aaishah (radiallaahu 'anhaa) held the opinion that the hadith of unvealing outside of the home was relavent to these baths, because when she asked the women about the public baths she warned them against it with the hadith that she qouted from the Prophet (salallaahu alaihi wa salam).
So hence why I want to understand what the nature of these public baths were.
Also, at these public baths did the women remove all of their clothing?
If so is there a difference between removing all of the clothing outside the home and just removing some (for example: removing the head covering in the presence of only women or mahram men)?
My next question is:
If it is not permissible for women to undress outside of their homes, what defines her home?
Is it limited to her husband's house?
For example if I live with my husband, but I go visit my mother's house or my brothers' houses or another sister's house, and there are no non-mahraam men around, is it permissible for me to undress in these places or must I stay fully covered?
The next question I have is:
What are the proofs that the people of knowledge use who hold the opinion that the awrah of a woman in front of another woman is from the navel to the knee?
What are the proofs that the people of knowledge use who hold that only the head, neck, lower arm and lower shin can be shown?
This is a very puzzling topic for me and I need clarity. If anyone can get these questions answered for me I would really appreciate it, Insha'Allaah.
Jazakumallaahu khairaa
Ukhtukum fid-deen
Umm Aasiyah Inshirah bint Umar
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| UmmAbdAziz
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Joined: Sep 2002
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Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah,
About the Awrah of a Muslim woman to other Muslim women, Shaykh Saalih ibn Fawzaan (Hafizahullah) answers some of these questions in an article on www.spubs.com.
See " On the awrah of A Muslim woman to other Muslim women"
Translated and Compiled by : Abu Aqeelah
Article ID: FQH020003
Was Salamu Alaikum
Umm Abdul Azeez Al-Mauritiusee
Ibn Umar (d. 84H) said: "Every innovation is misguidance, even if the people see it as something good." (Reported by Abu Shaamah no. 39)
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| Umm.Eeasa.Beg
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Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
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Asalamu aleykum
This is just a note about public swimming pools. I know of one swimming pool in Leyton, UK (Leyton Lagoon) where they kept the cameras on even during the womens session.
There was a muslim womens only swimming session organised by a muslim group, with non-muslim lifeguards and even during this session they still kept the cameras on. These cameras are recording at all times.
Check your own security because the sisters were not informed of this and it had been going on for years. There was talk to turn the cameras off which was contested that it could be a security risk for the pool company. I don?t know what the situation is now but it would be worthwhile checking.
You know if you cant swim, running is a really good sport and you can do that at home with a machine. There are other sports too that you can do at home.
wasalam
umm eeasa
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| Umm.Mariam
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Member
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Bismillah,
Assalaamu alaikum,
Having read the posts in this section, i have the following questions. And if any of the brothers could ask the mashaykh then i would be very grateful, as it is an issue for women and it (undressing in other than the permitted places) is something that we do not want to fall into, may Allah protect us, ameen.
Q1. So what is the case for the woman visiting her in-laws or other family or friends with her husband, and during this period of stay, she is need of taking a ghusl What would the Shaykh advise?
Q2. What is the case for the woman who is travelling (i.e. hajj, umrah, abroad on holiday)- no doubt during this time the woman will undress in her hotel room and shower - or does the hotel room count as a temporary home as her husband is paying for it?
Q3. What of the case of the woman in hospital after giving birth. She is asked to have a shower after giving birth (for cleanliness etc.) before being moved to the ward. And also before surgery, the patient is ordered to have a shower to decrease the risk of infections during the surgery itself. And obviously in both cases she must undress.
If the questions seem trivial then please forgive my shortcomings inshaAllah - but these are situations that most women have to deal with and therefore if we don't ask, we will not save ourselves from falling into sin.
Please clarify may Allah reward you and bless you with Jannah, ameen.
Wassalaamu alaikum
Umm Mariam
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| abu.bilal
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Member
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Joined: Sep 2002
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Bismillah Walhamdulillah Was Salaatu Was Salaam `ala Rasulillah
As-Salaam Alaikum Wa-Rahmatullahi Wa-Barakatuhu
I guess the only real question that should be asked at this point is....
"Is that your final answer?"
One minute a sister said it was this position, and then another, and then after the question was asked by the writer (myself) as to who we take our knowledge from, Tulabul Ilm or the Kibaar. That question Barakallahu fee was answered correctly, wherever the daleel is, we will follow that irrespective of the Shaykh being from the tulaab or Kibaar. I will mention that here in this thread, the case of the Tulabul Ilm there was no daleel provided, where as in the case of the Kibaar.. Adilla was provided. However, if the brothers / sisters who have been watching this 'array' of confusion - there has yet to be a 'definitive' answer, in addition the original question has not been maintained:
"Summer is approaching. There's a disagreement with sisters saying we can and some saying we cannot go to the swimming pool. My question is under what conditions can a sister go swimming? I would like to go swimming, but I don't know of any daleel supporting this opinion and because of the following I have stood against it and feel that we cannot. "
then it became:
.......Thursday May 22nd what Muslim women should wear when they are swimming, ......
........June 15th whether it was permissible for Muslim women to go swimming if the lifeguard is non-Muslim.
.......same day (Sunday June 15th) to ask him if it's permissible for women to swim in a pool (only women ofcourse) if the lifeguard is not a Muslim,......
Then it was:
Today [Tuesday August 5th @ approx.. 11:45am EST] on Paltalk in the Live Salafi Duroos room, Shaikh `Ubaid Al-Jaabiree حافظه الله again talked about women swimming when he was covering the `awrah of Muslim women when they are praying from the book, Manhaj us-Saalikeen by Ibn Sa`di.
It is should be a concern to us all, that more than 1850+ brothers/sisters have read this 'thread' here on Salfitalk.net. Many others may have read either parts of this or in whole, on other lists and emails. W'allahu alam.
I have forwarded a copy of this 'reply' to a brother who is very active on this web site, requesting that he ask a Shaykh for further clarity on this issue. I would request of you for your patience with me inshallah, until such time as I receive an answer.
It would seem that this 'thread' has come about as we attempt to answer questions relating to issues of Fiqh. Greater care should be excercised when quoting the Ulema. Issues of Fiqh such as this, should be answered either by student(s) of knowledge, here on Salalfitalk.net OR by the Ulema. This inshallah, should remove the confusion that has arisen here.
May Allah grant to us guidance in these matters and increase in our hearts the reality of our Deen.
?Then ask the people of remembrance if you do not know.? [Sooratun-Nahl 16:43]
Barakallahu feekum.
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| Hanif.Irfan
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Posts: 32
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وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلاَّ رِجَالاً نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ فَاسْأَلُواْ أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ
Hanif
This message was edited by Hanif.Irfan on 9-1-03 @ 12:29 PM
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| Hanif.Irfan
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Member
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As salaamu alaikum wa rahmatulillahi wa barakatu,
I deleted the above post in which I had responded to some of the points that our brother abu bilal brought concerning the issue of this post and the turn it seemed to be taking away from the original question of sisters swimming. My reasons for deleting it were manifold. The first being the naseehah that I received from my wife, and sincere salafies regarding not only the incorrect tone of my post as well as misunderstandings that arose from my statements. From them my comment, ?Nobody wanted to touch the subject.? reference to the permissibility of swimming. Implicitly indicating it would have been better for just anyone to answer our question rather than to wait for the people of Ilm to give the correct answer. My statement may have also been seen as a belittlement of those scholars and students of knowledge who did not as I said ?touch the subject?. I want to make clear my love and respect for our scholars and students of knowledge as they aid us in removing the ignorance from ourselves. I have privately apologized to Abu bilal for my unwarranted harshness towards him in my post. My lack of adab with him was made up by his patience and restraint. But as my original post was in the public so to should be my retraction. It is clear that he was upon clearer guidance than me in this issue and his speech was upon the correct methodology, may Allah reward him with good. Ameen. Finally, as this is a subject that requires more time, I am told that Insha Allah this issue will be brought again to Umm ?Abdillaah (hafidhahallaah) and Shaikh ?Ubaid Al Jaabiree (hafidhahullaah).
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلاَّ رِجَالاً نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ فَاسْأَلُواْ أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ
Hanif
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| umm.abdulmalik
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As Salaamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu!
Has there been any clarification concerning the permissibility of sisters (pubescence or not) swimming?
Barak Allahu Feekum!
Umm Abdul-Malik Naadira Bint Henry
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| Malik.Swift
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As Salaam Alaikum
I am not sure if this question was answered. I saw references to the Noble Alim Ubaid Al-Jabaree and Shayhk Hajuree. However, I am still confused at what they both said or if they received the question.
If the answer has not been addressed by the Shayook, then forward to them the following link of a swimming suit for muslimahs. Ask the Shayook if this swimming suit meets the shariah conditions of covering the females awrah and under what conditions (when only women are present or i.e. when men are not present)?
Baraka la feekum
http://www.jelbab.com/product.asp?prdID=400400
Description of suit from website
Swim Suit (Product #400400)
Swim Suit Modest & Elegant
This swim suit is made for swimming in internal pools. The suit has been used by Turkish Muslim women for years. It looks modest, covers all the body and titly covers the hair. It doesn't show through or stick while swimming.
The Suit is made in Turkey from fine and soft water repellant material that helps swimming and moving freely and smoothly
The suit comes in Four Pieces: Top ( jacket), Pants & two piece Hijab ( similar to Alameera Hijab)
Please note that Jelbab.com doesn't claim any Fatawa that this suit is a Muslim outfit swim wear.
Click on Size guide for size details
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24-04-2003 @ 12:00 AM
09-07-2003 @ 6:16 AM
12-07-2003 @ 2:57 AM
12-07-2003 @ 4:52 AM