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Topic: For the Attention of AbuJaabir
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 Admin
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Administrator
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Just to let you know "AbuJaabir", that we know that you are the same person who registered as "amreekanSalafi" who posted a nasty message earlier illustrating your hatred of the Salafees and your partisanship to Abul-Hasan al-Misri, and your using this issue in order to attack the Salafees who have taken a position against Abul-Hasan.
You also seem to be the person who is posting on other boards (as "SalafiGangsta") and spreading your nonsense there as well, there is strong evidence to indicate you are that person.
Thus, we ask you to list the specific points of difference you have with us, and then perhaps the Tullaab on this board can outline the positions towards them and engage you in constructive dialogue, so that some mutual understanding or clarification can be obtained. Rather than banning you again, seeing that you have decided to take a slightly more diplomatic approach this time with the second account you created as "AbuJaabir", we would like to give you a chance.
So please list whatever differences you have with us in aqeedah or manhaj, and let us be sincere to Allaah and to His Book and to His Messenger, and arrive at the truth. We as Salafees have nothing to hide and as you can see, we are very open and clear regarding what we are upon.
We await your response. Failing any response, or any meaningful constructive response, we have no option but to ban you in accordance with our guidelines and rules.
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SalafiTalk.Net Admin
This message was edited by Admin on 9-11-02 @ 10:43 PM
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| AbuJaabir
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Member
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salam alaikum,
insha Allah i will do my best to respond by tomorrow with my points of concern, so please be patient with me and i will post the issues i am looking for clarification on.
jazak Allahu khair
wassalamu alaikum
yaa Hayyu yaa Qayyum bi-Rahmatika astagheeth
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| Admin
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Administrator
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Keep them brief and to the point and don't diverge away from what you have been asked. Don't plagiarise from elsewhere or do a copy and paste job, just simply list what you differ on in issues of a) Aqeedah or b) Manhaj. Its just to keep the discussion focused and on the right track.
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SalafiTalk.Net Admin
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| AbuJaabir
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ok no problem insha Allah. just give me a little bit of time to put all my thoughts on paper, thats all.
yaa Hayyu yaa Qayyum bi-Rahmatika astagheeth
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| AbuJaabir
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assalamu alaikum,
My intent in writing this, is for it to serve as a way for us to see what it is we are being attacked with, and insha Allah the issues can be clarified if anything I've said is a misunderstanding, or rectified if something I say is a valid criticism. My intent is NOT to give hizbis more fuel to attack the Salafis with. The posts on CG were *nothing more* than statements from the 'ulemma (more on that later), and remember, it would just be easier to post the original deleted post on CG if that were really the intention and objective.
Point One: Books of the Innovators
Let me preface this by saying, that I AGREE that the books of the ppl of deviation, and their tapes, etc, should be abandoned. This is the advice of our noble scholars, and insha Allah we should all adhere to it. However, in implementing there are what many people perceive to be inconsistencies.
For example, SalafiBookstore still sells books by Muhammad al-Jibaly (some of which are not at all translations, but original works by him) despite what was said at the Troid conference this summer that we are not to take "one harf" from him, and we are not in need of his books, whether they be on divorce, or any subject. The question then arises, is he from those who we abandon or not? If he is, then it does not make sense to warn against him, and at the same time promote his books. --e.g. we all know the condition of Abu Muslimah and that even his tapes on hijab, etc. are to be abandoned. So what then about warning from Ar'oor, BP, etc, and still selling books from them? Unless there is a distinction in the way the aformentioned are to be abandoned or treated, in which case please clarify, as it's a bit confusing.
Anyway, the perception is that if someone else were to sell the books, they would be immediately "off the manhaj" or if someone was to post an Abul-Hasan article, or defend Abul-Hasan in any manner, then they are also 'off' (more on this later). However, the confusing part about this is that sp still has a 76 page file written by Abul-Hasan on their website (one refuting Qutubis and Surooris no less). so again, it is something that is perceived as a double standard, and needs to be clarified insha Allah. -i.e. why is the article on the sp website by Abul-Hasan ok, but the one on the website for the Luton masjid (where all the "extremism of the juhaal" articles come from) is not allowed?
These are points of contention that the hizbis can (and do) use against the Salafis. On face it appears to be a gross double standard that has up til now gone unclarified.
Point Two: Jarh wa Ta'deel
Let me preface this point with saying, I do not disagree with the principles of jarh (e.g. judging a person by his companionship, the precedence of the jarh, and the jarh mufassal, etc.). However, I see the points raised by the Shuyookh in those 'exposition of extremism' articles to be quite valid, and I hope that we can truly have a real discussion on them instead of just trying to ignore them, etc.
Here are a just 2 of the points mentioned throughout those articles that I see as applying to some situations today:
a) Al-Albaanee (rh) not making the Abdur-Rahmaan Abdul-Khaaliq issue into a mihnah for his students
b) News from a thiqqah CAN BE REJECTED if someone more *acceptable* (but not necessarily more *reliable* comes with different news) and also for other reasons
c) The hikmah in making a lot stuff public - "So it was not proper for these people to spread this subject amongst the people and bring it to the general peoples attention" (eg we should talk to ppl at their level, and the general ppl are more in need of more basic types of knowledge first)
Most of the points raised in these articles seem to be 'jarh mufassal' to the issues at hand so they need to be responded to in detail. It does NOT HELP any when these points are just referred to as "trash" especially when they are statements made by some major students of knowledge with major tazkiyaat.
Point Three: Abul-Hasan and Miscellaneous Points
First, and perhaps this is simply a frustration issue, but I do not understand the need for all of this kalaam on Abul-Hasan.
Again, I am going to give a preface:
I am NOT saying that we should ignore the Abul-Hasan issue. I am NOT saying that we should sweep it under the rug and not criticize him.
I AGREE that we are to warn against him as per the advice of the 'ulemma who have issued the warnings. HOWEVER, what I do not understand, is the need to make this into an overriding test of everyone's salafiyyah. Some examples are given in those extremism articles on this point.
Additionally, Abul-Hasan is NOT someone well known in the West. Most people never even heard of him until SP posted about his condition in their forums. I do not understand the need to question everyone on their "stance" about the Abul-Hasan issue.
If the 'ulemma said to warn against him, give the warning, and move on, right?
I do not wish to 'belittle' the Abul-Hasan issue, however, I believe that some of the brothers have gone into the opposite extreme and 'created a mountain of a molehill' -- you dont need an atomb bomb to destroy an antpile.
The reason I say this, and the reason it is frustrating, is because it seems as Salafis we are sometimes losing track of our priorities. YES, we must know who is a hizbi, YES, we must warn against them, but we must do it within bounds, and not lose our focus.
Would it not be sufficient to give a small summary of what his problems are, convey the message and leave it at that?
Realistically speaking, we need to also be focusing our time in refuting other ppl as well. In some cases, these people are misleading more people, and misleading them in more dangerous things (e.g. corrupt concepts of Tawheed).
It pains me to say it, but sometimes I feel we Salafis are more well versed in the errors of ppl like Maghraawee, Abul-Hasan, etc. then we are in the basic 'uloom of the deen. For example, how many Salafis know arabic? How many can read Qur'aan with tajweed? How many have the Qur'aan memorized??
We have to remember, that whilst refuting ahlul-bid'ah IS NOBLE, we must remember that we are the ummah of the middle path, and we must not ignore the other parts of the deen as well.
Conclusion
I pray to Allah that He guides us to the Truth in all the affairs where the people have dispute. We have some differences, which hopefully we can get clarified and all our hearts can be united.
Finally, I would like to make an apology for the previous post, which was harsh, and ask the brothers and sisters to forgive me. Harshness added unnecessarily makes things ugly, and gentleness makes the things beautiful. I have learned from that post, and from now on insha Allah I will do my best to post with the proper adab as per Quran and Sunnah, as well as follow all the guidelines of this board.
But I hope that all of us take heed from MY mistake and we are nicer in dealing with one another, especially when our differences stem from what seem to be misunderstandings in our dealins with each other, and not disagreements over issues of aqeedah, etc.
wa akhiru da'waahum anil hamdu lillaahi Rabbil 'aalameen
wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah
yaa Hayyu yaa Qayyum bi-Rahmatika astagheeth
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| Admin
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First of all, jazaakallaahu khair for your points. Insha'allah, I am sure the relevant people will be able to answer them here on this board.
However, a point I wish to raise (aside from the issues that need to be clarified) is that as we mentioned previously, we as Salafis are very open and clear as to our positions and our methodology and our walaa and baraa.
Seeing that you have gone to the websites and boards of the outright Takfiris and Qutubis which we will not mention here, and have given the likes of those people opportunities to attack the Salafees, we request from you that you go back on those boards and free yourself from any attacks against the Salafees, and also free yourself from those Qutubis and Takfiris, openly and clearly. If you share the manhaj of the Salafee scholars, and those who follow them in the West, and are not concealing or hiding anything (like a devious manhaj, or devious companionship, or hatred and the likes), then you will have no problem in doing this, freeing yourself from them and from any attacks against the Salafees.
To give you an example, it is like, a person claiming to be upon the manhaj and aqidah of Imaam Ahmad, and then seeing some issues and problems, he goes into the gatherings and circles of the Murjees, Mu'tazilees, Jahmees and then begins to give them materials with which to attack Imaam Ahmad, saying that he is too harsh and makes tabdee' and enforces his tabdee' upon others, like he did with Karaabeesee and Muhaasibee, and that he uses foul language towards them like "Khabeeth" etc.
You have gone into the gatherings and circles of the Qutubis, the Khawaarij, and give them materials by which to attack the Salafees who are upon the manhaj of al-Albaani, Ibn Baz, Uthaymin, al-Fawzaan, Rabee', an-Najmee and others, which is in opposition to what the Takfiris and Khawarij are upon, in the issues of takfir, haakimiyyah, da'wah etc. Those people are misguided and astray, and you have gone into their ranks and spread things by which they will attack the Salafees and at the same time, they themselves are far astray from the haqq.
You have gone into the platforms in which takfir is made of Shaykh Rabee' and Shaykh Ahmad an-Najmee is called a munaafiq, takfir is made of the scholars of ahl us-sunnah, where the innovators like qutb and mawdudi are defended and praised and the salafis are mocked and abused, where incitement is made to takfir and revolution, and in the midst of all of this, you have presented to them things by which they will attack Ahl us-Sunnah. This behaviour does not arise from a Salafee. It is impossible.
We are aware of your posts as "SalafiGangsta" on certain boards. So make amends, and free yourself from them and from what you have given them of causing harm to the Salafees, and openly announce your opposition and cutting off from them and that they are astray, upon other than Salafiyyah. Since, this is an action that is very difficult to arise from a person who claims attachment to Salafiyyah, and it is hardly something that can occurr as a mistake, since anyone who is upon Salafiyyah in knowledge and practice (instead of just a claim), would not even dare to think of doing such an action.
This will indicate to us that you are genuine and sincerely wish rectification. We have experienced many people before who only wish to find fault and cause problems, while pretending to seek rectification, and then in the end their true realities become apparent by their actions.
So we await this from you. Until we see this from you, you will not be allowed to post any more messages. However, the issues raised will be answered, if Allaah wills.
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SalafiTalk.Net Admin
This message was edited by Admin on 9-12-02 @ 12:31 PM
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| Admin
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Concerning the article on SP from Abul-Hasan, then I have found out that they removed all the articles when his deviation became clear, but two articles were not removed due to being unawares. An article on hijrah which was removed after they were informed by someone, and an article on the Qutubis by Abul-Hasan, which has now been removed/edited I am told. Maybe this clears one point. If anyone else has anything to add they can do so.
Also you have to distinguish between having articles from Abul-Hasan on subjects that do not relate to the current fitnah and between articles that relate to it, and are being used in order to propagate the false ideas for which Abul-Hasan has been criticised and refuted recently. The first is what SP had on their site, and forgot to take off, the second is what is being used by others currently, such as the authors of those "exposing the extremists" articles. So you must not treat these two issues to be the same, they are not.
I also ask other members to address these points inshaa'allaah.
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SalafiTalk.Net Admin
This message was edited by Admin on 9-13-02 @ 12:15 AM
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| Admin
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We have just received an email from someone of the page (in that discussion board) in which you have stated some aspects of what we asked you. Having read it quickly (as well as some of the comments) the following points can be made:
1). Jazaakallaahu khairan and may Allaah give you thibaat.
2). One person has forged a lie and claimed that you have been called "affaak, dajjaal". Know that this is a lie, and know also that these people lie against the Salafees, and they have no fear of Allaah in lying and speaking loosely. Some of the du'aat who have experience with these people, have witnessed first hand their lies. So I advise you to take every word with caution. You know that nothing of this sort has been directed towards you. Rather, instead of banning you when we found that you came back under a different account, we accommodated you and did not make a great issue out of it. This is because we desire guidance, mutual understanding, and correction for all. As for the claim of the liar that you have been called "dajjaal, affaak", then know that this is a lie, and this is the occupation of these people, to sit and lie against the Salafees, and to distance other people from the Salafees by way of these types of lies.
3). The points you have made above have been quoted by others and pasted in other forums, as a means to attack this board. This does not concern us and nor are you to be blamed. You should know that these people are the "vultures" and they are upon the "vulture culture" which is to hunt every little thing by which they can attack and demonise the Salafees with. They spend their time, morning and evening, days and nights, engaging in these types of activities.
4). Inshaa'allaah you will be able to resume posting tomorrow. However, I ask you to wait until all of your questions have been answered before following anything up. Ask any questions you wish. Inshaa'allaah I am sure that there are enough students of knowledge to be able to answer whatever doubts or misconceptions you may have.
Baarakallaahu Feek.
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SalafiTalk.Net Admin
This message was edited by Admin on 9-13-02 @ 12:11 AM
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| AbuAbdirRaqeeb
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Books Of People Of Hizbiyyah
Asslaamu alaykum,
This is just a brief explanation of the following point that a brother posted upon this board:
>>Point One: Books of the Innovators
For example, SalafiBookstore still sells books by Muhammad al-Jibaly (some of which are not at all translations, but original works by him) despite what was said at the Troid conference this summer that we are not to take "one harf" from him, and we are not in need of his books, whether they be on divorce, or any subject. The question then arises, is he from those who we abandon or not? If he is, then it does not make sense to warn against him, and at the same time promote his books. --e.g. we all know the condition of Abu Muslimah and that even his tapes on hijab, etc. are to be abandoned. So what then about warning from Ar'oor, BP, etc, and still selling books from them? Unless there is a distinction in the way the aformentioned are to be abandoned or treated, in which case please clarify, as it's a bit confusing.<<
As for the people of deviation, then for sure they should be avoided and warned against. Not only a warning of their errors but also tahdheer of the individual who carries the deviation. And this is something that Al-Maktabatus-Salaifiyyah and the firmy established du'aat have been upon for a decade or more, walillaahil-hamd.
As for the books of the people of deviation, from those who translate the works of the scholars into the English language, such as the book published by the Surooree JIMAS, 'Sifatus-Salaah...' Of Shaykhul-Islaam Al-Albaanee (rahimahullaah), or 'Manhajul-Anbiyah fid-da'wah ilallaah..' (By Al-Allaamah Rabee' Ibn Haadee al-Madkhalee) published by the hizbee Al-Hidaayah etc. then we stock these books, since these books are the works of the Scholars that these deviants have translated and/or published.
As for the books authored by deviant translators in the West, where they rely almost entirely upon the works of the Major Scholars (such as their use of Al-Albaanee in hadeeth checkings and Ibn Baaz, Ibn Uthaymeen in their fiqh and rulings), then we look into the book and its contents to see whether it is in accordance with the manhaj of the Salaf and we make sure nothing has been added by way of deviation or false understanding. If it is the case that the manhaj of the book is sound, then we stock the book and place an introductory note in the beginning of the book stating why the book has been stocked and questioning the reliability of the translator, author or publisher. Here is a sample of the introductory note:
"Disclaimer by Salafi Publications The contents of this book are considered to be sound and in accordance with the Qur'aan and Sunnah, therefore we have stocked it in our Bookstore. This however does not mean that we recommend the author, because it is possible that the author may be using the Qur'aan and Sunnah only to promte his deviation! For more information: tel.00 44 121 773 0033"
If, however, the book is found to be corrupted in its conntents, then we will not stock it. Or if a mistake is realised later, then it will be immediately removed.
Also, if we find a book which is written by a clear Salafi upon the same topic, then we will move to phase out the book on the same topic by the person of tahazzub.
We know that many of these authors who write these books are writing them to get around copyright restrictions. They believe that if they take all the benefit from the books of the Scholars without actually using a straight forward translation, then they will not be pursued for copyright violations. Muhammad Al-Jibaly actually admitted this to Abu Khadeejah and Abu Talha Dawood Burbank a few years back in 1998.
We asked some of ahul-'ilm regarding this issue of stocking the books of some of these people of tahazzub, who take their checkings and source-material from the likes of Al-Albaanee, Ibn Baaz, Ibn Uthaymeen, Muqbil Ibn Haadee, Fawzaan etc., and then they publish it into English. And these mashaykh clearly stated it was something permissable and allowed and praised our extra caution in checking the books authenticity and writing a cautionary introductory note in the beginning of the book.
And we mentioned that some of them author, translate or publish books on topics which are not otherwise available in the English language, so we check them and add the note in the beginning of the book. They again stated its permissibility and praised the care we take in placing the introductory cautionary note in the beginning of the book.
It should also be noted that many scholars of the past and present have taken the works of deviants and serviced them with takhreej and edited them and removed the mistakes from them. Just to give a few simple examples: 'Fiqhus-Seerah' of Muhammad Al-Ghazaalee (the Ikhwaani pro-shee'ah deviant) was checked by Shaykhul-Islaam Al-Albaanee, rahimahullaah; 'Ghayatul-Maraam fi takhreej al-Halaal wal-Haraam' is a checking of the book of the innovator Yusuf Al-Qardaawee by Imaam Al-Albaanee; 'Minhaajul-Qaasideen' is a mukhtasir checking of 'Ihyaa Uloomud-Deen' of the Soofee Al-Ghazaalee by Imaam Ibn Qudaamah; 'Minhaajus-Sunnatin-Nabawiyyah' of Shaykhul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah is a correction of a book of the Shi'ites. And one could continue giving examples where the books of the deviants and ahlul-ahwaa were taken, serviced and checked by Ahlus-Sunnah.
>>Anyway, the perception is that if someone else were to sell the books, they would be immediately "off the manhaj" or if someone was to post an Abul-Hasan article, or defend Abul-Hasan in any manner, then they are also 'off' (more on this later).<<
Then if the Bookstore is itself upon the Salafi da'wah in usool and furoo', then there is NO such perception. If they do that which SPubs does or something similar, then they will not be criticised, inshaAllaah.
However, if those people defend the deviants and promote their false ideas and refuse to take the stances of the well-founded scholars, then they deserve critricism , not only a percieved criticism, but an open criticism.
As for your point talking about defending Abul-Hasan Al-Misree, then there are only two types of people who will defend him: 1. The one who is unaware of his deviations and bid'ah (in which case he is told of the stances of the scholars who have refuted him with jarh mufassar, so he is made aware) - and this one should remain silent until he learns. Or 2. The ones who agree with the false principles and bid'ah and deviation he is upon and defend them like he defends them. Then this one is counted along with him.
And all praise is due to Allaah.
Wassalaam
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| abu.ibraaheem2
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As-Salaamu alaikum,
which scholars said this is permissible (selling the books of the people of innovation)? What did they say exactly?
Jazakallaahu khairan.
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| AbuAbdirRaqeeb
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The Shaykhs who mentioned what has been stated in my original post include: Shaykh Abdul-Maalik Ar-Ramadhaanee and Shaykh Abu Anas Hamad Al-Uthmaan.
What they stated is mentioned in my post above.
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| Sunnah
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Just a quick point about what was stated earlier in AbuJaabir's post:
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| c) The hikmah in making a lot stuff public - "So it was not proper for these people to spread this subject amongst the people and bring it to the general peoples attention" (eg we should talk to ppl at their level, and the general ppl are more in need of more basic types of knowledge first) |
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This is surprising! Because, it was not the Salafis who made this stuff public and taught it to the people initially! Rather it was Abul-Hasan al-Misri who was preaching his baatil, and to spread these ideas amongst the people by his cassettes and lectures. This includes his false principles that relate to the issues of following the evidence, and taqleed, and accepting the news of the trustworthy person and other such issues, all of which he was using to undermine the actual issue of jarh of the Innovators. So when he entered his innovations, then Ahl us-Sunnah stood to counter his innovations, and now alhamdulillaah, Ahl us-Sunnah are wise to the plots of this Innovator. So really, who is to be blamed?!! Ahl us-Sunnah or the Innovators?!!!
To put this issue into context, its like saying (this is just by way of example):
"So it was not proper for Ahl us-Sunnah to start saying "the qur'aan is the speech of Allaah, it is not created", or for Ahl us-Sunnah to start saying, "Allaah is above His Throne, bi dhaatihi, baa'inun min khalqihi - So it was not proper for these people to spread this subject amongst the people and bring it to the general peoples attention" (eg we should talk to ppl at their level, and the general ppl are more in need of more basic types of knowledge first)".
So does any person who actually understands the Salafi manhaj make statements like this!! Of course not.
So likewise, this person Abul-Hasan al-Misri who proclaimed his innovations and taught them to the people, and then you have his followers in Yemen, Emirates, Luton, Brixton, the States and elsewhere promoting this man, his contracts, his ideas and defending him and spreading the same doubts, so what blame is upon the people of the Sunnah that they clarified this, so that even the common person in the street knows its falsehood. Indeed that a shopkeeper in the times of Imaam Ahmad knows that the Qur'aan is "ghayr makhlooq" and "minhu bada'a wa ilaihi ya'ood" and that Allaah is above the heavens "bi dhaatihi, baa'inun min khalqihi" and so on, is just a like a factory worker today knowing that "qubool khabar uth-thiqah" is from the manhaj of Ahl us-Sunnah and is not taqleed, and that the "jarh mufassar overrides the ta'deel". By Allaah that we here the shopkeepers and factory workers and street cleaners coming out and stating these words is beloved to us, why because they are slogans of Ahl us-Sunnah in our times, and they oppose the slogans of Ahl ul-Bid'ah such as:
"we correct the mistake but do not criticise or destroy"
"we speak about the bid'ah but not about the person"
"I do not accept any criticism of an individual that I know unless I go and see it for myself"
and other such slogans of Ahl ul-Bidah of our times.
So the above statement (which I think is from Usama al-Qusi) is completely out of context. In fact it applies 100% to Abul-Hasan and his followers. So I ask AbuJaabir to carefully consider the whole situation and not to be deceived by the sayings of those who spread these types of doubts like the allies of the Innovators in Luton and elsewhere, and to truly go back and look into the manhaj of the Salaf and not to pay attention to those today who wish to dilute this manhaj to suit their own form of da'wah.
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