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Ibnnoor
07-07-2008 @ 7:02 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Musa'ab Muhammed Abdullah Nishil ibn Noorudheen Al-Hindee (India)
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Assalamu Alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu!!

All Praise Is Due To Allah And May The Peace And Blessings Of Allah Be Upon His Messenger Mohammed Ibn Abdullah(Sallahu Alaihi Wassalam)And His Family And All His Companions(RAdhiallahu Anhum)!

I wish to know what is the stance of the salaf in regards to debates with the
people of bida'h and the kuffar!I had a talk with somepeople who claimed the proof for debating with ahlul bidah as "Ibn Abbas(radhiallahu anhu) going to the khawarije!" I told them that some of our salaf had warned against debating but they said this athar of Ibn Abbas is strong daleel!

And they quote ayahs for proof of debates with the kuffar!

Inshallah Someone could give me the actually status of debates in Islam!!






Jazakhulla khair Wa Barakallah Feekum,Nishil

masjidsiddeeq
08-07-2008 @ 2:51 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Masjid Aboo Bakr As-Siddeeq (Decatur/Atlanta, Georgia USA)
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wa alaykum assalaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh

Imaam Ahmad (d. 241, raheemahullaah) said in Usool As Sunnah:

6. And the abandonment of quarrelling, argumentation and
controversy in the religion.

Imaam as-Saaboonee (d. 449H) said about Ahlus-Sunnah, "They
follow the Salafus-Saalih the Imaams and the Scholars of the Muslims, and they cling to the firm deen that they clung to and to the clear truth. And they hate Ahul-Bid'ah (the People of Innovation) who innovate into the Deen that which is not from it. They do not love them and they do not keep company with them. They do not listen to their sayings, nor sit with them, nor argue with them about the Deen, nor debate with them.  Rather, they protect their ears from hearing their futility; things, which if they pass through the ears and settle in the hearts, will cause harm and cause doubts and wicked ideas to appear. And concerning this Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic, sent down: "And when you see people engaged in vain discourse about Our Signs, then turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme.ý [Soorah al-Anýaam (6):68] Risaalah fil-I'tiqaad Ahlis-Sunnah Ashaabil-Hadeeth, p. 100, of Imaam asSaaboonee.

And also, from Usool as-sunnah:

18. And that he does not argue with anyone, nor dispute and
nor should he learn [about how to make] argumentation [in
such matters].



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Ibnnoor
08-07-2008 @ 12:52 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Musa'ab Muhammed Abdullah Nishil ibn Noorudheen Al-Hindee (India)
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Joined: Jan 2008
          
Waalaikum Salam Warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu!!

Shukran!Like I mentioned i had mentioned some of this!but they say that the opinion of the salaf should be only accepted if they have supporting hadeeth!otherwise it becomes like taqleed!I warned against sitting with the Ahlul bidah!but they say there is no hadeeth supporting it!


Jazakhulla khair Wa Barakallah Feekum,Nishil

abu.jamaal
12-07-2008 @ 4:26 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Jamaal unspecified (Daytona Beach, Florida (FL) USA)
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Assalaamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah

May Allah bless you all who are trying your best to be upon the way that He loves.  The way of Rasullullah salalaho alaihi wa salam and the way of the companions.  Below are some ayaat, ahaadeeth, and statements from the ulamaa about debating.

quote:

Allah says in the Quran in Suratul Nahl ayat 125:

Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and fair preaching, and debate with them with that which is best. Truly, your Lord best knows who has strayed from His path, and He best knows those who are guided.


From Tafsir ibn Kathir

Allah commands His Messenger Muhammad to invite the people to Allah with Hikmah (wisdom). Ibn Jarir said: "That is what was revealed to him from the Book and the Sunnah.' [and fair preaching] meaning, with exhortation and stories of the events that happened to people that are mentioned in the Qur'an, which he is to tell them about in order to warn them of the punishment of Allah.

[and debate with them with that which is best.] meaning, if any of them want to debate and argue, then let that be in the best manner, with kindness, gentleness and good speech, as Allah says elsewhere:

[And do not debate with the People of the Book, unless it be with that which is best, except for those who purposefully do wrong] Suratul Ankaboot (29)ayat 46. Allah commanded him to speak gently, as He commanded Musa and Harun to do when he sent them to Pharaoh, as He said:

[And speak to him mildly, perhaps he may accept admonition or fear (Allah)] Surah Ta Ha (20) ayat 44.


So as we read debating is permissible as noted is Surah Nahl (16) ayat 125 where Allah said [and debate with them with that which is best,] and  he also said in  Suratul Ankaboot (29) ayat 46 [And do not debate with the People of the Book, except it be with that which is best.]
So Allah gives permission to debate.  What about the impermissibility of debating?
We find the impermissibility in the same ayat in Suratul Ankaboot (29) ayat 46 where Allah says:  [except with such of them as do wrong;]

Ibn Kathir rahimahullah says about this ayat:
quote:

[except with such of them as do wrong;] meaning, those who turn away from the truth, turning a blind eye to clear evidence, being stubborn and arrogant. In this case you should progress from debate. . .


We understand about the ones who do not accept the Quran and the authentic sunnah of Rasullullah salalaho alaihi wa salam that we should stop debating with them as Allah mentioned and as ibn Kathir rahimahullah explained.
Now some brothers and sisters may say that the ayat in Suratul Ankaboot is pertaining to the People of the Book.  We say to them the following ayaat and hadeeth.

Allah says in Suratul Faatiha that we pray at least 17 times a day:
quote:

Guide us to the Straight Way.  The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

Narrated Adi bin Hatim [radhi-Allahu 'anhu]: I asked Allah's Messenger [sal-Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam] about the Statement of Allah: 1." Ghairil-maghdubi 'alaihim [not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger]," he [sal-Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam] replied: "They are the Jews." And 2. Walad-dallin (nor of those who went astray)," he [sal-Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam] replied: "The Christians, and they are the ones who went astray."
[This Hadith is quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Musnad Abu Dawood].

From Sahih Al-Bukharee
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 92 :: Hadith 422
Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a lizard, you would follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"



So we see that some of the Muslims will follow the way of the People of the Book, and Allah tells us how to deal with them pertaining to this specific matter of debating.

Shaykh Ibriheem bin Aamir Ar-Ruhaylee hafidhthahullah mentioned in his book Mawqif Ahlus Sunnah min Ahlul Ahwaa wal Bid'ah Vol 2 page 547, the statement of Imam ibn 'Uthaymeen rahimahullah from his book Sharh Lumatul 'Itiqaad page 110-111:
quote:


And abandoning Ahlul Bid'ah is waajib (obligatory) due to the statement of Allah: [You (O Muhammad (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam)) will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allýh and His Messenger. . .] Surah Mujaadilah (58) ayat 22, and because the Prophet salalaho alaihi wa salam abandoned K'ab bin Maalik and his companions while they remained behind from the battle of Tabook.  But if it is an advantage to sit in their gathering to clarify the haqq (truth) to them, and to warn them from bid'ah (innovation in the religion) there is no problem in this.  And perhaps this is desired because of the statement of Allah: [Invite (mankind, O Muhammad (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam)) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Inspiration and the Qur'an) and fair preaching, and debate with them in a way that is better.]



So read the example Rasullullah salalaho alaihi wa salam gives about a good sitting and good companionship, and a bad sitting and bad companionship.  And from the explanation of Imam as-Saaboonee rahimahullah our brothers from Masjid Abi Bakr as-Siddeeq shared with us.

quote:


Bukhari :: Book 3 :: Volume 34 :: Hadith 314
Narrated Abu Musa:

Allah's Apostle said, "The example of a good companion (who sits with you) in comparison with a bad one, is I like that of the musk seller and the blacksmith's bellows (or furnace); from the first you would either buy musk or enjoy its good smell while the bellows would either burn your clothes or your house, or you get a bad nasty smell thereof."

Imaam as-Saaboonee (d. 449H) said about Ahlus-Sunnah, "They
follow the Salafus-Saalih the Imaams and the Scholars of the Muslims, and they cling to the firm deen that they clung to and to the clear truth. And they hate Ahul-Bid'ah (the People of Innovation) who innovate into the Deen that which is not from it. They do not love them and they do not keep company with them. They do not listen to their sayings, nor sit with them, nor argue with them about the Deen, nor debate with them.  Rather, they protect their ears from hearing their futility; things, which if they pass through the ears and settle in the hearts, will cause harm and cause doubts and wicked ideas to appear. And concerning this Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic, sent down: "And when you see people engaged in vain discourse about Our Signs, then turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. [Soorah al-An'aam (6):68] Risaalah fil-I'tiqaad Ahlis-Sunnah Ashaabil-Hadeeth, p. 100, of Imaam asSaaboonee.



In order for us to receive a complete understanding of the ayat from Suratul An'aam let us read the tafsir of it insha Allah.  We will read ayaat 66-70.

quote:


[66. But your people have denied it (the Qur'an) though it is the truth. Say: "I am not responsible for your affairs.''  67. For every news there is a reality and you will come to know.  68. And when you see those who engage in false conversation about Our verses (of the Qur'an) by mocking at them, stay away from them till they turn to another topic. And if Shaytan causes you to forget, then after the remembrance, sit not you in the company of those people who are the wrongdoers. 69. There is no responsibility for them upon those who have Taqwa, but (their duty) is to remind them, that they may (attain) Taqwa.) 70. And leave alone those who take their religion as play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But remind (them) with it (the Qur'an) lest a soul Tubsal for that which one has earned, when he will find for himself no protector or intercessor besides Allah, and even if he offers every ransom, it will not be accepted from him. Such are they who are given up to destruction because of that which they have earned. For them will be a drink of boiling water and a painful torment because they used to disbelieve.]



Below is the tafsir of the above ayaat from Tafsir Ibn Kathir.

quote:

Allah said,
[But have denied it] denied the Qur'an, guidance and clear explanation that you (O Muhammad ) have brought them,

[And when you see those who engage in false conversation about Our verses (of the Qur'an)), by denying and mocking them, stay away from them till they turn to another topic.] until they talk about a subject other than the denial they were engaged in.

[And if Shaytan causes you to forget...] This command includes every member of this Ummah. No one is to sit with those who deny and distort Allah's Ayat and explain them incorrectly. If one forgets and sits with such people,

[then after the remembrance sit not you] after you remember,

[in the company of those people who are the wrongdoers.]. A Hadith states, {My Ummah was forgiven unintentional errors, forgetfulness and what they are coerced to do.}

The Ayah above 6:68 is the Ayah mentioned in Allah's statement,

[And it has already been revealed to you in the Book that when you hear the Verses of Allah being denied and mocked at, then sit not with them, until they engage in a talk other than that; (but if you stayed with them) certainly in that case you would be like them. 4:140]  for, if you still sit with them, agreeing to what they say, you will be just like them.

[There is no responsibility for them upon those who have Taqwa,] means, when the believers avoid sitting with wrongdoers in this case, they will be innocent of them and they will have saved themselves from their sin.

[but (their duty) is to remind them, that they may avoid that.], means, We commanded you to ignore and avoid them, so that they become aware of the error they are indulging in, that they may avoid this behavior and never repeat it again.

[And leave alone those who take their religion as play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world.] The Ayah commands to leave such people, ignore them and give them respite, for soon, they will taste a tremendous torment.

This is why Allah said,

[But remind with it] meaning, remind the people with this Qur'an and warn them against Allah's revenge and painful torment on the Day of Resurrection.

Allah said;

[lest a soul Tubsal for that which one has earned,] meaning, so that it is not Tubsal. Ad-Dahhak from Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan and As-Suddi said that Tubsal means, be submissive. Al-Walibi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Tubsal means, `be exposed'. Qatadah said that Tubsal means, `be prevented', Murrah and Ibn Zayd said that it means, `be recompensed', Al-Kalbi said, `be reckoned'. All these statements and expressions are similar, for they all mean exposure to destruction, being kept away from all that is good, and being restrained from attaining what is desired. Allah also said;[Every person is restrained by what he has earned. Except those on the Right.74:38-39]


I leave you with an example of how this is implemented by our imam, Imam Al-Albanee rahimahullah.
Taken from: Debate with a Jihadee
quote:


A listener : To be frank my Shaikh, this discussion is going nowhere : if one does not make his intention and mind pure he will never understand.
Al-Albani : This is indeed a good advice. We live in an age where one of the fatal characters is spread, which is everyone liking his own opinion. Today everybody who reads a bit of Quran or learns a bit of Ahkam and Hadeeths, he thinks he is something in 'ilm although he can not read the hadiths without errors, and then he wants to argue everything he sees ...
Al-jihad supporter .. trying to interrupt ...
Al-Albani : the time for discussion is over. I will take the advice of the brother. My advice to the students of knowledge is not proceed to preach to the people something that may lead them to great misguidence (Dalal). He should check with the people of knowledge before he jumps to conclusion. It is one of the disasters of the muslim youth today to quickly adopt opinions without looking into the opinions of the Salaf and khalaf regards these issues.




So, take the example of our salaf in these matters ya ikwaa barakallaho feekum (may Allah bless you all)

Assalaamu Aalikum wa rahmatullah


Abu Jamaal Shadeed ibn Holmes

sajid_chauhan_81
21-12-2008 @ 6:27 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Consider the following quote from the book "Kitaab Sharh us-Sunnah"
by Imaam Al-Barbahaaree (Translated by brother Abu Talhah Dawud Burbank and posted on the salafipublications.com homepage)

quote:

Point 12: Censure of Debating and Arguing

Debating, arguing and disputing are innovations which throw doubt into the heart, even if the person reaches the truth and the Sunnah[1].  

NOTES
1. Allaah, the Most High says:

"None dispute about the signs of Allaah, except those who disbelieve." (Soorah Ghaafir 40:4)

At-Tirmidhee reports a hasan hadeeth from Abu Umaamah, who said: "Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said, "A people never went astray after being upon guidance except through disputation." Then Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) recited this Ayah :

"This they set forth to you, only by way of argument. Nay, but they are a contentious people." (Soorah az-Zukhruf 43:58)

Al-Aajurree reports in ash-Sharee'ah (p.57) that a man came to al-Hasan (al-Basree) and said, "O Abu Sa'eed! Let me debate with you about the Religion." Al-Hasan replied, "As for me, I know my religion, If you have lost your Religion then go and look for it."

'Umar ibn 'Abdul-'Azeez, rahimahullaah, said, "He who allows his Religion to be open to disputing will frequently change over." See Jaami' Bayaanil 'Ilm (2/113)  


It should be noted that word used for "dispute" in the above ayaats and the hadeeth is "jidaal" which is the same word that is used in Suratul Nahl ayat 125 and Suratul Ankaboot (29)ayat 46 and was translated as "debate" in that case.

Consider the following anecdote from the life of Imaam Maalik rahimahullaah. It is a slightly modified transcript of an extract from the CD set "Usool us Sunnah by Imam Ahmad Rahimulah" by Shaykh Ubayd Al Jaabiree Hafidulah translated by Abdulilah lahmami(contact www.markazmuaadh.com to get hold of this)

quote:

An Innovator (someone from Ahlul Hawaa) once came to Imaam Maalik rahimahullaah and said, "O Aba Abdillaah! Listen to me."
Imaam Maalik said, "No..not even half a word."

So he kept on insisting and told him debate with me, debate with me, until he said, "If I defeat you, then you follow me, and if you defeat me then I will follow you."
Imaam Maalik rahimahullaah: "What if a third person comes and he defeats both of us."
Innovator: "Then both of us will follow him."
Imaam Maalik: "You should go away since you move from one position to another."

This is how the Aimmaah were. They were firm. Aqeedah of ahlus sunnah is known. Manhaj of ahlus sunnah is known. They didn't used to just move...right...left... They were firm upon it and they would stay upon it. This is how a Salafee should be. This is how an atharee should be.  One who goes with narrations. He's firm upon it, because it's not built upon the desires and opinions of men.


Finally, here is the narration of Imaam Barbahaaree rahimahullah from the same book Kitaab Sharh us Sunnah

quote:

Point 83: Rhetoric (kalaam) causes disbelief, doubts, innovations, misguidance and confusion

May Allah have mercy upon you! Know that heresy, disbelief, doubts, innovations, misguidance and confusion about the religion have never occurred except through theological rhetoric (Kalaam) and because of the people of theological rhetoric, argumentation, debating and disputation. How can a man plunge into argumentation, disputation and debating seeing that Allah, the Most High, said:

None dispute regarding the Ayaat (revelations, signs, proofs) of Allah except those who disbelieve [1].

You should submit to and be pleased with the narrations and the people of narrations, withhold and remain silent.

NOTES
[1] Soorah Ghaafir (40): 4


May Allaah facilitate the publishing of the english translation by Br. Aboo Khadeejah hafithahullah of the explanation of this wonderful book by Sh. Fawzaan hafithahullah. Aameen.

sajid_chauhan_81
04-01-2009 @ 5:16 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Another example of how, when and by whom a debate is to be done.

Click http://salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=6&Topic=2400

Allamah Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab al Banna hafithahullah debates and refutes a defender of Usaamah ibn Laaden(may Allaah guide him or destroy him).

sajid_chauhan_81
14-01-2009 @ 6:31 PM    Notify Admin about this post
unspecified ساجد (Mumbai (India))
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Allaamah Rabee hafithahullah said,
quote:
And if it was that the great ones from the Salaf, such as Ayyub as-Sakhtiani and Ibn Sireen and Mujahid and other than them, would not tolerate to listen to a word or even half a word from the people of falsehood, then they would not give you permission to debate with Ahlul Bid'ah, because debating with them would land you in fitnah and confusion. [And] those scholars were the people of experience and intelligence and advise.


Quote taken from http://salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=9&Topic=7483

sajid_chauhan_81
16-01-2009 @ 6:14 PM    Notify Admin about this post
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Listen to a portion of Imaam Albani debate with students of the Sufi-Ashari, Hasan ali Saqqaf by clicking http://sunnah.tv/video/watch.cfm?v=epgkmf

Thus debate is not completely prohibited based on the ayaah and based on the fact that Ibn Abbaas debated khawaarij and also the recent Scholars have done but it has to be used as the last resort and it is done by the Ulemah and not the common Muslim or the beginner Student of Knowledge. Ofcourse, the asl is to avoid even sitting with Ahlul Bidaah leave alone debating/arguing/discussing/disputing with them. WAllaahu aalam

sajid_chauhan_81
16-01-2009 @ 6:31 PM    Notify Admin about this post
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Click http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=9&Topic=5935 to read a beneficial post by Br. Mustafa George hafithahullah. He has compiled good notes on the affair of advising, condemning and debating, taken from two works of our Salaf- As- Saleh.  The first book is entitled: ýThe Character of the Scholarsý, by Imam Al Ajuree (died 360h).  The second is entitled: ýThe Difference Between Advising and Condemningý, by Al Hafith Ibn Rajab Al Hanbali (died 795h) -may Allah have mercy on them both.

Do read the beneficial work of Imaam Ibn Rajab rahimahullah at http://al-ibaanah.com/cms/pdf_files/49.pdf

It should be noted, as the author(Imam Ibn Rajab) states, that his treatise only applies to Ahlus-Sunnah, and as for the innovators and people of desires, then these guidelines do not apply to them.

sajid_chauhan_81
01-10-2009 @ 9:51 PM    Notify Admin about this post
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Here is another hadeeth on the subject.

'A'isha reported Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) as saying: The most despicable amongst persons in the eye of Allaah is one who tries to fall into dispute with others.

Saheeh Muslim No. 6447






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