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Posted By Topic: Clarification upon the Issue of al-Hadd

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Umm.Medyen.Ameenah
25-03-2005 @ 12:15 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Umm Medyen Ameenah Mik'aeel (Kuwait)
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Posts: 9
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Bismillah Wa Inna Alhamdalillaahi Wahdahu Wa SalAllaahu Wa Sallam 'Alaa Khaatim Al-Anbiyya' Wa 'Alaa Aalihee Wa Ashaabihee Wa 'Alaa Manittaba'a Hudaah

I ask Allaah, the Noble Lord of the Great Throne, that He be your Protector in this World and the Hereafter, and that He makes you blessed wherever you are, and that He makes you from those people that, when given, are thankful, and when tested, are patient, and when they sin, they repent. And verily these three are the keys to happiness.
I pray you are all in the best of health and the richest of emaan insha?allaah wa ta aala ameen..

As Salaamu'alaykum Wa Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakaatuh

Subject: In Defence of the Ulamaa On Shaykhul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah Rahimullaah

http://www.troid.org/articles/manhaj/innovation/indefenceoftheulamaa/ibntaymiyyah.htm

Under the section: The Accusation that ibn Taymiyyah held Allaah to be subject to limitation (hadd..)

I was a little confused with this section, im in need of some clarification as i dont wish to take the wrong meaning insha'allaah

Just to clarify to make sure I have NO misunderstanding of this, does it mean that allaah subhanallaahu wa ta'aala has no limitation as he is the all knowing all seeing and is free from such an attribute, but rather its referring to the limitations that he is not in need of doing.. ie he is most able, but reframes from doing it, rather its not a limitation but rather not in need of doing it Is that correct??
Please could someone clarify or if incorrect please explain a little simpler
Jazakallaah khair

Subhaanak Allaahumma Wa Bihamdika Ash-Hadu Anna Laa Ilaaha Illaa Anta Astagfiruka Wa Atoobu Ilayk

As Salaamu'alaykum Wa Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakaatuhu

Fi amanAllaah

Masalaamz
Umm Medyen Ameenah Mik?aeel
Kuwait

Ref:

?The innovators looked into the works of ibn Taymiyyah and saw him mentioning the word hadd with respect to Allaah and immediately assumed that he held Allaah to be subject to limitation and without and further research declared him as a deviant or kaafir. The error of this accusation will become clear, by the Permission of Allaah.
The basis of this accusation lies with the authentic saying related from Abdullaah bin Mubaarak as is related in ?Tabaqaat al-Hanaabila? (1/267), "I said to Ahmad: it is reported from ibn al-Mubaarak that it was asked him, ?how should we know our Lord?? to which he replied, ?over (fee) the Seventh Heaven, over His Throne with hadd.? So Imaam Ahmad said: this is how we believe it." [Related by ad-Daarimee in ?Radd alaa Mareesee? (pg.34), Abdullaah bin Ahmad in ?as-Sunnah? (1/175), al-Bayhaqi in ?Asmaa was Sifaat? (pg. 467). Imaam adh-Dhahabee said in ?al-Uluww? (pg. 152 - of the mukhtasar), "this is saheeh, established from ibn al-Mubaarak and Ahmad may Allaah be pleased with him." Ibn Taymiyyah said in ?al-Hamawiyyah? (5/184 - of Majmoo al-Fataawaa), "this is famous and established from ibn Mubaarak via many routes, and it is also established from Ahmad bin Hanbal, and Ishaaq bin Raahawayyah and other Imaams." See also ?Sharh Aqueedah at-Tahaawiyyah? (pg. 240). See also the refutation of al-Kawtharees feeble attempts to declare this narration da`eef in ?Daf` Shubah al-Ghawiyyah? (pp73-74) of Shaykh Muraad Shukree

But was the meaning of the Imaams in saying this? Was it establishing limits for Allaah with the meaning of the walls of a house setting its limits, or something else? Or does Allaah have an Attribute of hadd? What is the reconciliation between this narration from Imaam Ahmad and the previous one mentioned above (no.675)?

Ibn Taymiyyah says,

"These words that he mentioned would be applicable if they had said that He has an Attribute and it is hadd, as suggested by this person who tries to refute them. This has not been said by anyone and neither would any intelligent person say this, for this statement has no reality to it due to their not existing a single Attribute from the Attributes that He is described with, such as Hand and Knowledge, that has been specified as hadd. All that is meant here is what distinguishes something from something else with regards to its description and measure as is well known of the word hadd when dealing with the clearly defined things. For example it is said: the hadd of man, meaning those characteristics that distinguish him as being a man." [ ?Talbees al-Jahmiyyah? (1/442) of ibn Taymiyyah.]

So historically when the Jahmiyyah, denied the Attributes of Allaah, and denied his being above His Throne, rather they said He is everywhere, then some of the Salaf replied to this by saying that indeed Allaah has a hadd with the meaning: that which distinguishes Him from anything else, in that He has Risen over His Throne and is distinct from creation. Ibn Taymiyyah said,

"So when the Jahmiyyah said: indeed the Creator is not distinguished from the creation, and they denied the Attributes which distinguish Him, and they denied His Power (qadr), to the extent that the Mu`tazila said, when we acknowledge that He is Living, Knowing and all-Powerful (only), then we have come to know His reality. They say: indeed He is not distinct from other than Him. Rather they depict Him, either with negative descriptions such as: He is not in the world, nor out of the world, and not this and not that, or they make Him to be encompassed by the creation.

So Abdullaah bin Mubaarak made clear that the Lord is over His Throne, distinct from the creation, and he mentioned hadd because the Jahmiyyah used to say: He does not have a hadd, and whatsoever does not have a hadd cannot be distinct from creation, and cannot be above the creation because that would necessitate a hadd. So when the Ameer al-Mu`mineen Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak was asked: ?How should we know Him?? He said, ?above His Heavens, over His Throne, distinct from His creation.? So they said, ?this implies that which the Jahmiyyah negate, and with this negation of theirs they negate the fact that He is present over the Throne, distinct from creation.? So they asked him, ?with hadd?? And he replied ?with hadd?.

So this is what is understood by anyone who understands what was between the sayings of the believers of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa`ah and the Jahmiyyah." [Ibid (1/443)]

Then ibn Taymiyyah discusses the statements of those from the salaf who negated the usage of the word hadd, and those who used it, and explains that in reality both groups were saying the same thing, and the difference was merely one of wording not of meaning:

"If the understood meaning of this word is that Allaah is in any way enclosed by His creation, then Allaah is Greater and more Mighty, rather His Kursi is as the expanse of the Heavens and the earth?and if what is meant by this word is that he is distinct from His creation, then He is as the Imaams of Ahlus Sunnah said about Him: over His Heavens, above His Throne, distinct from creation." [?at-Tadmuriyyah? (pg.46)of ibn Taymiyyah, see also for further detail, ?Talbees al-Jahmiyyah? (2/163)]

So after all this, it becomes clear that ibn Taymiyyah did not hold Allaah to be subject to limitation, and it becomes clear that the word hadd was used by some of the Salaf with the meaning: distinguishing characteristics, when it became necessary to do so to refute the various deviant groups at that time.



This message was edited by Umm.Medyen.Ameenah on 3-26-05 @ 12:41 PM

abu.iyaad
27-03-2005 @ 9:57 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu `Iyaad   (UK)
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Posts: 182
Joined: Sep 2002
          




As Salaamu `Alaykum wa Rahmatullaah,

What is meant by "hadd" is that Allaah is not within the creation, or mixed with it and vice versa. The Salaf who made this statement and used the word "hadd" did so in order to refute the Innovators, whose words implied that there is no distinction between the Creator and the creation. They would describe Him as "not in the world, nor outside of it..." which would imply that He is mixed with the Creation and is united with the creation.

So the Salaf said that Allaah is above the seventh heaven, over His throne with a "hadd" - meaning that He is distinct and separate from His creation.

Ibn Mandhoor said in Lisaan ul-`Arab, "Al-hadd: the parting (fasl) between two things such that one of them does not mix with the other, or that one of them does not extend into the other".

However, when the Salaf stated this, they did not affirm "hadd" as an attribute, like we would affirm "yad (Hand)" or "wajh (Face)" etc., because al-hadd has not been reported as an attribute in this manner. But it was merely a descriptive term that added clarity and refuted the claims of the Jahmiyyah. Just like the Salaf added "ghayr makhlooq (not created)" with respect to the speech of Allaah, the Qur'aan, in order to refute the Innovators, and some of the Salaf added "bi dhaatihi (with His essence)" when they said that He was above the Throne, above the creation, and others added "baa'inun min khalqihi (separate from His creation). All of this was to make clear the correct `aqeedah from the false `aqeedah.

So likewise, some of them said that Allaah is above the Throne, above the Heavens with a "hadd", i.e. that Allaah is clearly separate and distinct from the Creation, not mixing with it, nor it mixing with Him.


أبو عياض أمجد بن محمد رفيق
.-=abu.iyaad=-.
-=amjad bin muhammad=-
-rafiq-

Umm.Medyen.Ameenah
27-03-2005 @ 4:00 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Umm Medyen Ameenah Mik'aeel (Kuwait)
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Mar 2005
          
Bismillah Wa Inna Alhamdalillaahi Wahdahu Wa SalAllaahu Wa Sallam 'Alaa Khaatim Al-Anbiyya' Wa 'Alaa Aalihee Wa Ashaabihee Wa 'Alaa Manittaba'a Hudaah

Jazakallaah Khair for the clarification akh

Subhaanak Allaahumma Wa Bihamdika Ash-Hadu Anna Laa Ilaaha Illaa Anta Astagfiruka Wa Atoobu Ilayk

Wa'alaykum As'salaam Wa Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakaatuhu

Fi amanAllaah

Masalaamz
Umm Medyen Ameenah Mik?aeel
Kuwait







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