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Posted By Topic: Question Regarding the Dhaatiyyah & Fi'aliyyah of Allaah

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Hamza-L-F
06-04-2004 @ 2:07 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Hamza ibn Shaukat ibn Muhammad (London, UK)
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quote:
It is possible that an attribute could be both Dhaatiyyah and Fi'aliyyah, according to each of the two, such as Speech. In regards to the origin of the attribute, it is an attribute of His Essence (Dhaatiyyah) because Allaah never stopped nor will stop speaking. And in regards to the units of Speech that are put forth, it is an attribute of the action (Fi'aliyyah), since Speech is connected to His Will. He speaks as He wills, when he wills.
(Exemplary Foundations Concerning the Beautiful Names and Attributes of Allaah - Imaam Muhammad ibn Saalih al-'Uthaymeen)

A brother and I had a question concerning this principle.
What we understand from the above is that there are some attributes of Fi'aliyyah that fall under the above principle, but not all of the attributes of Fi'aliyyah. Is this correct or are they all described as such?
Does, for example, the attribute of "Creating" also fall under the above, i.e. its origin is an attribute of His essence, but in regard to the act of creating then this is an attribute of his action which is connected to His Will? Hence, can it be said that it is both Dhaatiyyah and Fi'aliyyah?

How do we determine which attributes fall under the above principle?

If someone from the tulaabul 'ilm (maybe our brother Moosa Richardson hafithahullaah) could expound upon this principle and answer our questions, it would really benefit us.

Jazakumullaahu khair

Wa salaam

Subhaanakallaah humma wa bi Hamdika Ashadu allaa ilaha illa ant, astaghfiruka wa atooba ilayk

This message was edited by Hamza-L-F on 4-6-04 @ 2:21 PM

abusalmaan
06-04-2004 @ 8:27 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Salmaan Talha ibnu William Davis (Birmingham, England)
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بالله الرحمان الرحيم

This principle is not applied to every name or attribute. As His name 'ar-Rahmaan' is His Dhaat and His name 'ar-Raheem' is from his af'aal, the One who has mercy on His slaves.

أبو سلمان النمري طلحة بن وليم

والعصر ان الانسان لفي خسر الا الذين آمنواو عملوا الصالحات و تواصوا بالحق و تواصوا بالصبر

Moosaa
07-04-2004 @ 5:19 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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In the Name of Allaah, al-'Aliyy, al-A'laa...

1. A good example mentioned by Shaykh Muhammad Amaan Jaamee (rahimahullaah) to help us understand the difference between Attributes that are thaatiyyah (referred to in the translation as "permanent, continuous Attributes) and those that are fi'liyyah (referred to in the translation as "chosen actions") would be: al-istiwaa' (the Ascension) and al-'uluww (Loftiness).

Al-'Uluww is thaatiyyah, meaning that Allaah never ceases to be described with Loftiness.  Even when Allaah comes to His Servants on the Day of Judgement, He will still be described with 'Uluww.

Al-Istiwaa' is fi'liyyah, meaning that it is connected to Allaah's Will and His Wisdom, He does it when He likes, and He is not to be continually described as ascending.  For example, He ascended over the Throne after creating the heavens and the earth in six days.  

2. "What we understand from the above is that there are some attributes of Fi'aliyyah that fall under the above principle, but not all of the attributes of Fi'aliyyah. Is this correct or are they all described as such?"

Your understanding is correct, that only some of the fi'liyyah Attributes are also thaatiyyah.  Shaykh Ibn 'Uthaymeen (rahimahullaah) did not mention any examples of fi'liyyah Attributes other than Speech (which is also thaatiyyah), so let us look to some other examples of fi'liyyah Attributes given by Shaykh Muhammad Amaan Jaamee (rahimahullaah) in his explanation:

Istiwaa' (Ascension)
Nuzool (Descent)
Majee' (Coming)
Farah (Happiness/Rejoicing)
Ghadhab (Anger)


So to understand properly, ask yourself:  Is Allaah always described with these Attributes, or have they only been reported regarding specific occasions?  These five examples are fi'liyyah, and not thaatiyyah.

3. "Does, for example, the attribute of "Creating" also fall under the above, i.e. its origin is an attribute of His essence, but in regard to the act of creating then this is an attribute of his action which is connected to His Will? Hence, can it be said that it is both Dhaatiyyah and Fi'aliyyah?"

Allaah is Al-Khaaliq and does not cease to be described with Creation, and He is also described with the Creation of individual things, like Aadam, like the heavens and the earth.  So His Attribute of Creation with regards to them is fi'liyyah.  Meaning He is not to be continually described as "creating Aadam."  So your understanding is correct, and Allaah knows best.

Another example of an Attribute that is fi'liyyah and thaatiyyah would be Rahmah.  Meaning that, in general, Allaah is ar-Raheem, ar-Rahmaan, the Possessor of Rahmah, whether you specify that Rahmah for the believers in the Next Life or the entire Creation, either way Allaah never ceased to be described with Rahmah.  And in a specific way, Allaah has Mercy on individuals at certain times, like when He accepts the tawbah of His individual servants, for verily He is at-Tawwaab, Ar-Raheem, and Allaah knows best.

4. I did not understand Abu Salmaan's answer, perhaps he can elaborate in shaa' Allaah.

I hope this answer helps, wa sallallaahu 'alaa nabiyyinaa wa sallam.

Moosaa ibn John Richardson

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سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك

abusalmaan
08-04-2004 @ 10:32 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Salmaan Talha ibnu William Davis (Birmingham, England)
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بسم الله الرحمان الرحيم

Sorry for the delayed reply but I was traveling.

I was trying to breifly show that not every name has the above principle. The example being 'ar-Rahmaan' being sifatu dhaat(ذو رحمة واسعة), and 'ar-Raheem' being an example of his af'aal, الذي يرحم عباده . Jazaakallaahu khairan for your better explanantion ya akhaana Moosa.  

أبو سلمان النمري طلحة بن وليم

والعصر ان الانسان لفي خسر الا الذين آمنواو عملوا الصالحات و تواصوا بالحق و تواصوا بالصبر

Moosaa
08-04-2004 @ 11:21 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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wa jazaakum Abaa Salmaan,

I understand now.  What was confusing to me was that Hamza was asking about the Attributes themselves, not the Names that establish them.  But what you have said is very relative, since you given an example of two Names that establish the same Attribute (rahmah), one Name establishes it as a sifah thaatiyyah and the other establishes is as a sifah fi'liyyah.  If I am not wrong, this is what you are saying:

Ar-Rahmaan is: [1] a Name of Allaah & [2] a reference to His Permanent (thaatiyyah) Attribute of all-encompassing Rahmah (Mercy)

Ar-Raheem is: [1] a Name of Allaah & [2] a reference to His Chosen Action (sifah fi'liyyah) of Bestowing Mercy upon the believers in the Hereafter.

Moosaa ibn John Richardson

********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك

abusalmaan
08-04-2004 @ 1:23 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu Salmaan Talha ibnu William Davis (Birmingham, England)
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هذا هو

أبو سلمان النمري طلحة بن وليم

والعصر ان الانسان لفي خسر الا الذين آمنواو عملوا الصالحات و تواصوا بالحق و تواصوا بالصبر

Hamza-L-F
08-04-2004 @ 4:37 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Hamza ibn Shaukat ibn Muhammad (London, UK)
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Asalaamu 'alaykum wa rahmathullaahu wa barakaathuhu Alhamdulillaah, Jazakumullaahu khair, the answer did indeed help. We also knew kalaam as the only example given by Shaykh Ibn 'Uthaymeen and were eager to know of others. Barakallaahu feekum Wa salaam

Subhaanakallaah humma wa bi Hamdika Ashadu allaa ilaha illa ant, astaghfiruka wa atooba ilayk

ummmusa88
03-08-2009 @ 3:02 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Umm Musa bint Muhammad (New York)
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asalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

i had a question about the attributes of Allah that are fi'liyyah -
from what i understand, they happen in certain times and are not eternal
attributes of Allah - so if they are not eternal, does that mean that they
are created?


jazakAllahu khayran

abu.iyaad
08-08-2009 @ 12:34 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu `Iyaad   (UK)
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As salaamu alaykum warahmatullaah.

This is the asl (foundation) of the Jahmiyyah (and the Mu'tazilah and Ash'ariyyah) for the negation of the sifaat fi'liyyah (attributes tied to Allaah's will), because they say "Allaah is not subject to hawaadith" (occurrences) - and what they intend by this are actions tied to Allaah's will, meaning actions that occur after having not occurred. To them  anything subject to such occurrences must itself be brought about, created - and this is the argument they have made to be the cornerstone of their creed, arguing for the createdness of the universe through "hudooth ul-ajsaam". This is what led them to deny the sifaat fi'liyyah, and the attributes in general.

This would mean (according to them) that when the servant reads the Faatihah in the prayer, and Allaah responds "My servant has praised me" and so on ... this necessitates Allaah is created, as He is subject to occurrences, and likewise the opening verse in Surah al-Mujadilah, "Allaah has heard the saying of she who disputes...", this would mean according to them that Allaah was subject to an event, occurrence, because this is an instant of speech that did not previously occur, Allaah spoke these words after creating the creation and after creating she who disputed - and then we can apply the same way of thinking to the many verses and ahaadeeth that affirm sifaat fi'liyyah.

So in this manner they negate a large part of what is found in  the Book and the Sunnah regarding Allaah's sifaat fi'liyyah, and they make ta'weel (of tafweed) of all such attributes.

We affirm whatever Allaah affirmed for Himself, and His Messenger affirmed for Him, negating tashbeeh, tahreef, ta'teel, takyeef  and none of that necessitates Allaah's attributes or actions are created, and since Allaah in His Dhaat (Essence) is not created, then whatever attributes and actions He is described with are not created either, since the speech about the attributes follows speech about the essence. And as for the creatures, then they are created, and thus speech about their attributes and actions follows on from that, so the actions of the servants are created.

Visit http://www.asharis.com  - there are many articles on there that cover this topic.


.-=abu.iyaad=-.
-=amjad bin muhammad=-
-rafiq-

ummmusa88
21-09-2009 @ 4:26 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Umm Musa bint Muhammad (New York)
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asalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah,

jazakallahu khayran for the response - it clarified many things wa lillah
ilhamd.

i went to the website but couldn't find any particular article addressing my
question...

i understand the concept of Allah's actions, taking place at particular
times, like His Ascension above the throne, and we believe that this action
of His is not created - but how do we relate this to the concept of His
attributes being eternal as well? can we say they are all eternal? - the way
we say they are all uncreated?

so basically, is there a difference between an attribute that is not
created versus an attribute that is eternal?


barakAllahu feekum

Moosaa
25-09-2009 @ 2:55 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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wa 'alaykis-salaamu wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh

Here is something to simplify the matter a bit - in shaa' Allaah - :

Wisdom and Knowledge are Attributes that Allaah is always described with.  Nothing He does is without knowledge and wisdom ever.

Speaking to the Prophet Moosaa (may Allaah's Peace be upon him) when he was on the mountain is an action that He chose to do, yet he is not continually (or eternally) described with that action.  This was one form of His Glorious Speech, referred to by the scholars as a sifah fi'liyyah ikhtiyaariyyah, meaning an Attribute based on a chosen Action that He did or does whenever He liked/likes.

So none of His Attributes are created.

But some of them are described as thaatiyyah, eternal, and others are not.


Allaah is exalted above the false claims attributed to Him, and He knows best.

Moosaa ibn John Richardson

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ibnwaheed
26-09-2009 @ 3:22 AM    Notify Admin about this post
unspecified Hassan bin Waheed (Teaneck, NJ, USA)
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Does every name imply a Sifah Dhaatiyyah? Meaning, the fact that Allah Creates - and is called The Creator - is Dhaatiyyah?

And is every action that doesn't have a name connected to it a Sifah Fi'liyyah? Meaning, 'adhaab is a Sifah, but not a Sifah Dhaatiyyah since Allah isn't described as Al-Mu'adh-dhib?

Moosaa
26-09-2009 @ 4:51 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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The principle is: Attrbutes are derived from Names, but Names are not derived from Attributes, and your example illustrates that quite well.  And Allaah knows best.

Moosaa ibn John Richardson

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ibnwaheed
26-09-2009 @ 6:03 PM    Notify Admin about this post
unspecified Hassan bin Waheed (Teaneck, NJ, USA)
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ummmusa88
19-10-2009 @ 5:02 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Umm Musa bint Muhammad (New York)
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jazaka Allahu khayraa,

alhamdulillah all clear now...

i had another question about the particular sifat of Allah's kalaam in
relation to the Qur'aan.

so this sifat - kalaam Allah - can be both fi'liyyah and dhaatiyyah -
but which one is it with respect to the Qur'aan?


if the Qur'aan was spoken at a specific moment in time, like Allah speaking
to Moosa 'alayhi asalaam, it would be fi'liyyah.

but i was reading Foundations of the Sunnah, and imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal
said about the Qur'aan: "The speech of Allah, eternal, not created". so
here, the imaam rahimuhullah seems to be saying that it is dhaatiyyah.

can someone explain this inshaAllah?

jazakumAllahu khayraa

subhanaka Allahumma wa bihamdik ashhadu anla ilaaha illa ant astaghfiruka
wa atooboo ilayk






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