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Posted By Topic: Who can answer this question about KUFR?

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Moosaa
31-01-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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A brother commits kufr (disbelief) often.

If he claims that this kufr he commits does NOT decrease his eemaan, how could we respond to him?

********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك

This message was edited by Moosaa on 1-31-03 @ 9:10 AM

AbooTasneem
31-01-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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We will respond to him with the statement of His Rabb in Sooratul Muddaththir [74:31]

And We have set none but angels as guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for unbelievers, in order that the people of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the believers may increase in belief?"



and "It is He who sent down tranquility into the hearts of the believers, that they may add belief to their belief." Sooratul Fath [48:4]

Then we tell him that Eemaan increases and decreases, and if he asks how does it increase and diminish, we will inform him that if we hold Allaah in remembrance, praise Him, and glorify Him, our Iman increases. But, if we hold Allaah little in remembrance, our Eemaan decreases and that this is the belief held by our Salaf, from the first, second and third generations.



Then we will ask him if acts of obedience makes his eemaan increase, then would it not be logical that his acts of disobedience makes his eemaan decrease?


كن مستفيدا أو مفيدا
أو اسكت بحلم




Moosaa
01-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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jazaak Allaahu khayran abaa Tasneem

That is a proper refutation for the murji'ah, but I'm referring to someone from Ahlus-Sunnah who affirms that eemaan increases and decreaes.

However there really are (at least) two kinds of kufr that do not cause one's eemaan to decrease, and I am not referring to kufr akbar that nullifies one's eemaan altogether...

********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك

Moosaa
01-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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and both are mentioned in the Qur'aan!

********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك

AbooTasneem
01-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Ahsanta...ahsanta...ahsanta! Yaa Abal Abbaas wa Sumayyah wa Safiyyah wa Hafsah!

كن مستفيدا أو مفيدا
أو اسكت بحلم




MSbN.Ahmad
03-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Assalaamu'alaykum wa rahmatullaah

Afwan, but I'm totally lost.  Could someone explain the last 2-3 posts?  BarakAllaahu feekum.

Moosaa
04-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Summary of the above posts:

1) A question is posed

2) An answer is offered based on the apparent meaning of the question

3) A clarification that the person referred to in the question affirms that eemaan does increase and decrease

4) And that the answer can be found in the Qur'aan

5) Aboo Tasneem understands the intent of the question and, thus, the answer, but humbly leaves the post for others to answer.

6) A summary is requested

***

So the question still stands:

What is the kind of kufr (disbelief) that does not cause one's eemaan to decrease?

********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك

AbuUkkaasha
04-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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As-Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullaahi wa Barakaatuhu Ikhwaan!

Just looking at the statement concerning the type of Kufr which doesnt decrease ones Imaan, I think perhaps what Akhunaa Abul Abbaas [Hafidhahullah]intended by the question and Allaah knows best Li Qawleehee Ta'A3laa: Famane Yakfur Bit-Tawghoot wa Yu'min Billaahi Faqadis-Stamsaka Bil-Urwaatil Wuthqaa..." From Surah Baqarah where Allaah Al-Maalikul Barru Ra'oofur-Raheem says:" And whoever disbelieves in false deities and believes in Allaah, then he has grasp the tightest handhold that shall never break" [2:256]

الفضيل بن عياض: لو كان لي دعوة ما جعلتها الا في السلطان

Moosaa
04-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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لقد أجبت وأصبت أبا عكاشة

wa 'alaykumus-salaamu wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh

Na'am that's the kufr (disbelief) that doesn't decrease one's eemaan, the kufr that is obligatory on all human beings!  Disbelief in all things worshipped besides Allaah, and with this kufr a person can be a Muslim and without it he has not accepted Islaam!

So indeed a Muslim can commit kufr often and his eemaan will not decrease, if that kufr is kufr in the taaqoot as mentioned in the aayah.  Otherwise, all acts of lessor kufr (major sins) will always decrease a person's eemaan as shown by Aboo Tasneem, and as is the 'aqeedah of ahlus-Sunnah.

And that leads us to the other kind of kufr menioned in the Qur'aan and it also does not decrease one's eemaan....?

********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك

MSbN.Ahmad
04-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Are you referring to the kufr of the tongue one utters when forced but whose heart remains firm with eemaan?  I can't remember the reference.

Moosaa
05-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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( إِلَّا مَنْ أُكْرِهَ وَقَلْبُهُ مُطْمَئِنٌّ بِالْإِيمَانِ وَلَكِنْ مَنْ شَرَحَ بِالْكُفْرِ صَدْرًا فَعَلَيْهِمْ غَضَبٌ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ )

Jazaak Allaahu khayran akhee Ahmad, but I wasn't referring to this, as the excuse of being forced to do or say something covers all haraam things, from disobedience and oppression to acts of kufr and shirk as well.

What I'm looking for is a specific kind of kufr, that if you do it (intentionally and willfully) your eemaan does not decrease because of it.

As a further hint, the kufr mentioned in the aayah of "whoever disbelieves in the taagoot" means disbelief.  This second kind of kufr that we are looking for does not mean disbelief, rather it has another meaning, while the one who does it may still be called a "kaafir".....?

********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك

rasheed.b
14-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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As-salaamu alaikum,

It is the type of kufr that means to be ungrateful. As ALLAH mentions in Surah Al Insaan, verse #3; "Verily WE showed him the way, whether he be grateful(Shaakir) or ungrateful(kafoor)

And ALLAH knows best.

roshdy.majdoub
14-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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I remember hearing a while back that literal meaning of "Kufr" in fusha was to hide or to cover up. So it was said the way a farmer plants is by hiding and covering (the seeds etc).  Therefore back in history a "farmer" was also called a "Kaafir"!!!





AbooTasneem
14-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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The question our brother Abool Abbaas is asking to be answered is not from the linguistic point of view, but rather the shar'ee/legal side.

Try this one on for size:

[Sooratul-Mumtahinah (60):4]

Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibraaheem and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allaah, we have disbelieved in you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred for ever, until you believe in Allâh Alone," except the saying of Ibraaheem to his father: "Verily, I will ask for forgiveness (from Allaah) for you, but I have no power to do anything for you before Allaah." Our Lord! In You (Alone) we put our trust, and to You (Alone) we turn in repentance, and to You (Alone) is (our) final Return.

And Allaah knows best!

كن مستفيدا أو مفيدا
أو اسكت بحلم

This message was edited by AbooTasneem on 2-14-03 @ 6:51 PM

Moosaa
14-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Sorry, but I've been away for a few days...

1) Rasheed: "It is the type of kufr that means to be ungrateful. As ALLAH mentions in Surah Al Insaan, verse #3; "Verily WE showed him the way, whether he be grateful(Shaakir) or ungrateful(kafoor)."

That's a good answer, baarak Allaahu feekum, but you overlooked part of the question: "there really are (at least) two kinds of kufr that do not cause one's eemaan to decrease... and both are mentioned in the Qur'aan!"

And, obviously, ingratitude to Allaah decreases one's eemaan, since it is a kind of disobedience based on the Statement of Allaah:

( واشكروا لي ولا تكفرون )
"And be thankful to me and don't be ingrateful"

So ingratitude is a kind of kufr mentioned in the Qur'aan, however it certainly does decreases one's eemaan.  So we still are looking for a kind of kufr that DOES NOT decrease one's eemaan.


2) Roshdy: "I remember hearing a while back that literal meaning of "Kufr" in fusha was to hide or to cover up. So it was said the way a farmer plants is by hiding and covering (the seeds etc).  Therefore back in history a "farmer" was also called a "Kaafir"!!!"

That sounds great akhee, may Allaah increase you in good.  If this is true, then it would certainly be a kind of kufr that does not decrease one's eemaan!  BUT - is this kind of kufr mentioned in the Book of Allaah?  (This is a real question.)


3) Abaa Tasneem hafithakallaah:

Regarding the aayah you mentioned shaykhanaa, Allaahu a'lam, it seems to be a case of what is common in the 'Arabic language: mentioning something and intending a reference to what is a part of it or something connected to it in some way. [1]  

Some examples of this from the Book of Allaah:

( واسأل القرية التي كنا فيها )
"Then ask the village that we were in" [Yoosuf:82]
Meaning: Ask THE PEOPLE of the village.

( واشتعل الرأس شيبا )
"And my head has turned grey" [Maryam:4]
Meaning: the HAIR on his (Zakariyyaa) head has turned grey

( يرسل السماء عليكم مدرارا )
"He will send the sky upon you in abundance" [Nooh:11]
Meaning: the RAIN from the sky

And the arabs say, as mentioned by Ath-Tha'aalabee in Fiqh Al-Lughah:
أكلت قدرا طيبة
"I ate a good pot"
Meaning: the food that was in it

We say that in English too - "That was a good dish!"

It is also common to say:
شربت كأسا
I drank a cup
Meaning: the drink that was in it

and the likes...

This shows the usage of a word in the 'arabic language while the intent is not the word itself, but something related to it.

So here, in the aayah that you have mentioned:

كفرنا بكم
"We (Ibraaheem and those with him) have disbelieved in you (the polytheists of their tribe)"
Meaning: their dieties that they worshipped

This seems to be clear especially since the very words before this were:
( إنا برءاؤا منكم ومما تعبدون من دون الله كفرنا بكم )
"Verily we are free from you and what you worship besides Allaah, we have disblieved in you."

At-Tabaree said, explaining the aayah:
كفرنا بكم: أنكرنا ما كنتم عليه من الكفر بالله وجحدنا عبادتكم ما تعبدون من دون الله أن تكون حقا
ًWe have disbelieved in you: We have rejected what you are upon of disbelief in Allaah and we have denied that your worship of other than Allaah could be what is right.

Al-Baghawee said:
كفرنا بكم: جحدنا وأنكرنا دينكم
We have disbelieved in you: We have denied and rejected your Religion

Ibn Katheer said:
كفرنا بكم أي بدينكم وبطريقكم
We have disbelieved in you means: in your Religion and your way

Al-Qurtubee said:
كفرنا بكم أي بما آمنتم به من الأوثان، وقيل أي بأفعالكم وكذبناها وأنكرناها أن تكونوا على الحق
We have disbelieved in you means: in the idol worship that you believe in, and it is also said that it means: in your actions, and we have disbelieved and rejected the idea of you being upon the Truth.

These quotes are all from the aforementioned mufassireen's books for this aayah.  They show that the imaams of tafseer understood that the kufr here is disbelief ( جحود، إنكار، تكذيب ونحوه ), disbelief in their worship of other than Allaah.  So it seems to fit with the linguistic principle mentioned - that the disbelief in the polytheists does not mean disbelief in them themselves, rather it refers to disbelief in their aqeedah.  And Allaah knows best.




[1] And I am not using the word "majaaz" or "majaaz mursal" since Shaykh Al-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah made an excellent case against the very existence of majaaz in he language, let alone the Qur'aan.

********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك

Moosaa
15-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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From an email sent to me:

"Are you referring to the denial of all ilah in our statement of shaahaadah.

Laa ILaaha...  (There is no God....) and then of course the affirmation (illAllaah).  
So aren't we committing a deleberate kufr by saying first absolute negation of all Gods... Is this the 2nd type of kufr you are referring to?"

The negation found in the shahaadah is the same kind of negation found in the aayah "So whoever disbelieves in the taaghoot" - Since the meaning of laa ilaaha is "there is no ma'bood bi haqqin, nothing worshipped with right" illallaah "except Allaah".  It is the denial and rejection of all things worshipped besides Allaah, so then it is the same kind of kufr.  We are looking for a different kind of kufr, that carries a meaning other than disbelief...

Other people sent me emails as well, but I deleted them, thinking why don't they just post?!  Then I remembered that many people are still waiting for the registration to be completed.  So I apologize to them, and if they re-send their response to me, I will post it in shaa' Allaah for them.

We ask Allaah to have Mercy on the Hujjaaj that passed away this week.

Moosaa



********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك

iamsalafee
15-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Is it the action of the tiller of the seed (who rejoices with the vegetation produced). Refer to 57:20

 Al-Hadid (57):20
اعْلَمُوا أَنَّمَا الْحَيَاةُ الدُّنْيَا لَعِبٌ وَلَهْوٌ وَزِينَةٌ وَتَفَاخُرٌ بَيْنَكُمْ وَتَكَاثُرٌ فِي الْأَمْوَالِ وَالْأَوْلَادِ كَمَثَلِ غَيْثٍ أَعْجَبَ الْكُفَّارَ نَبَاتُهُ ثُمَّ يَهِيجُ فَتَرَاهُ مُصْفَرًّا ثُمَّ يَكُونُ حُطَامًا وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ وَمَغْفِرَةٌ مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانٌ وَمَا الْحَيَاةُ الدُّنْيَا إِلَّا مَتَاعُ الْغُرُورِ

Know that the life of this world is only play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting among you, and rivalry in respect of wealth and children, as the likeness of vegetation after rain, thereof the growth is pleasing to the tiller; afterwards it dries up and you see it turning yellow; then it becomes straw. But in the Hereafter (there is) a severe torment (for the disbelievers, evil-doers), and (there is) Forgiveness from Allâh and (His) Good Pleasure (for the believers, good-doers), whereas the life of this world is only a deceiving enjoyment.



This message was edited by iamsalafee on 2-15-03 @ 12:53 PM

Moosaa
15-02-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
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Baarak Allaahu feekum, iamsalafee, wa ahsana ilaykum...

Two weeks ago, I posted a hint on salafitalk but no one seemed to pick up on it.  Right after I posted "...and both are mentioned in the Qur'aan!" near the top of this thread, I posted another thread called: The Example of This Life is Like Some Rain... and it included this aayah, and I put part of the aayah in ALL-CAPS:

"...how rain and the growth which it brings forth delight (the hearts of) the FARMERS.  Soon it withers, and you see it grow yellow..." [Hadeed:20]

See the 'arabic:
http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=11&Topic=1246

The word for farmers/tillers in the aayah is "KUFFAAR" since he plants seeds and then covers them up, as Roshdy mentioned.

So planting seeds is the second kind of kufr mentioned in the Qur'aan that does not decrease one's eemaan.  Baarak Allaahu feekum iamsalafee!

Some very important benefits from this thread:
* affirmation of the increase and decrease of eemaan
* refutation of the murji'ah
* linguistic meaning of the word kufr
* denying the right of worship to everyone and everything except Allaah  is a condition to one's Islaam, and that this is the meaning of the shahaadah
* the excuse of ikraah (being compelled to do something)
* ingratitude is a kind of kufr
* a linguistic principle concerning mentioning something but referring to something related to it

And Allaahu knows best!

May Allaah reward you all generously.



********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك






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