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Topic: Cats
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 umm.abdulmalik
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Member
Posts: 58
Joined: Oct 2002
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As Salaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu!
Does anyone know if it is permissible to de-claw a cat?
Barak Allahu Feekum!
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| NuffinButDaHaqq
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Member
Posts: 43
Joined: Sep 2002
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insha Allah can someone answer this question, it is important for me to know as well since i was considering aquiring a cat but we have leather furniture and dont want it all scratched up
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| aqeel.walker
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Member
Posts: 97
Joined: Oct 2002
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salaamun 'alaykum wa rahmatullaah
We spoke to Shaikh Ahmad Bazmool in Makkah this past Tuesday from our Masjid in Atlanta and I made it a point to ask him your question about removing the claws of cats for the sake of the protection of your furniture. He chuckled a bit at the question, and when I asked him was it a strange question, he said "no, no, this is a good question because no doubt the cat will cause harm to furniture in the house." Anyway, in conclusion he said that apparently it seems permissible as long as it does not harm the cat and the cat does not undergo any suffering or pain due to it. However, he said that if the cat is tormented by this procedure and he screams and makes sounds to insinuate that he is suffering some pain from it, then you should avoid doing that.
We have his actual answer recorded on tape and I will transcribe it from the tape for our website www.assalafi.com soon, inshaa' Allaah.
Was-Salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaah
Aqeel
قال الشيخ ابن باز الطائفة المنصورة هي الفرقة الناجية هما واحدة هم أهل السنة و الجماعة و هم السلفيون
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| AbooTasneem
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Member
Posts: 265
Joined: Sep 2002
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When I originall saw this question, I hoped that it would have been forwarded to the people of Ilm for answering. Maa shaa Allaah it has! But there is one more thing that needs to be added and having had many cats in my house in the distant past, I would like to say, that the removal of the cats claws makes the cat defenseless and even if the cat is one that remains in the home, that is, does not go outside, the possibility of it going out and having to defend itself still remains.
I have seen a declawed cat try to do so, and it is not a pretty sight. Mentally, the cat thinks it has all of its Allaah given tools of defense, but when it strikes, the blows have no affect whatsoever. It can't climb up trees [or the like anymore] to escape its 'predator'etc.
Can you imagine trying to fight with no hands? If this aspect can be presented once again to the Shaikh, I think - and Allaah knows best - maybe he can give some ziyaadah (something extra) to his original answer.
Baarakallaahu feekum, Yaa Aba Sumayyah!
كن مستفيدا أو مفيدا
أو اسكت بحلم
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| aqeel.walker
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Member
Posts: 97
Joined: Oct 2002
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jazaakallaahu khayran yaa Abaa Tasneem,
These are excellent points. When we speak to the Shaikh again I'll ask him again with these added points of consideration. This type of cat would reaaally be the neighborhood "punk" (hahahaha).
Baarakallaahu feekum
was-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaah
قال الشيخ ابن باز الطائفة المنصورة هي الفرقة الناجية هما واحدة هم أهل السنة و الجماعة و هم السلفيون
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| AbooTasneem
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Member
Posts: 265
Joined: Sep 2002
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Yeah...he would certainly not be the cat's meow!
I know that was corny but I just had to say it!
كن مستفيدا أو مفيدا
أو اسكت بحلم
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| Moosaa
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Member
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sep 2002
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Also - I noticed that cats use their claws to relax, especially kittens, what is called kneading I think. Cats do this when they lay down to sleep. There are many other points that need to be included in this question and I would suggest that someone do research prior to the question. I mean research into ALL of the know effects of declawing from the right scientific resources, and then summarize this for the shuyookh and pose it with all available information.
It is very serious that a declawed cat may escape the house and, as mentioned be attacked and killed easily by another animal, or, and this is what is like the hadeeth, that the cat will not be able to hunt, and THUS not be able to kill anything and THUS not be able to eat, and THUS die of hunger. Then the case bears resemblance to the woman who kept the cat in the house and did not feed it, causing its death. Even with garbage cans around, the poor thing may not even get past the HEFTY bag without claws.
And is there any relationship between this question and "almughiyyiraati khalqallaah"!? its not such a simple question after all...
Moosaa
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سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك
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| AbooTasneem
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Member
Posts: 265
Joined: Sep 2002
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Baarakallaahu feekum Yaa Abal Abbaas, for surely I had these things on my mind also!
What I have found thus far is that, it is normal for cats to scratch objects in their environment.
The cat's claws are designed for catching and holding prey. The sharp, hooked, retractile claws are sheathed in a soft, leathery pocket at the end of each toe, and are extended for fighting, hunting, and climbing.
Cats scratch because it conditions the claws by removing the dead outer layer or sheath.
It is a way of marking territory by leaving both a visual mark and an odor or scent (cats have scent glands on their paws).
It is a way of stretching the entire body and flexing the feet and claws.
It is used during play.
It may be that cats communicate dominance by scratching in front of other cats.
Because scratching is a normal behavior, and one which cats are highly motivated to display, it is unrealistic for owners to try to prevent their cats from scratching. Instead, the goal in resolving scratching problems is to redirect the behavior onto acceptable objects.
There are some sprays availaible in the pet stores which are harmless to the cats and the furniture, which will deter them from scratching the chairs, sofas etc.
In short, these things need to be brought to the attention of the Ulamaa for this is not just a question of preservation of household goods, but also
one of punishment in the Hell fire for actions that may result in preventing one of Allaah's creatures from being albe to defend itself!
Unlike the hizbees presume, there is no issue in Islaam that should be looked at with disdain or as insignificant!
Whether it is women's menses, wudoo and ghusl or de-clawing cats!
كن مستفيدا أو مفيدا
أو اسكت بحلم
This message was edited by AbooTasneem on 10-31-02 @ 9:27 PM
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| aqeel.walker
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Member
Posts: 97
Joined: Oct 2002
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maa shaa'Allaah, this is good stuff. There is more to this than it seems. The original two questions were very breif and "cut and dry". But with all of these aspects that have been highlighted by our brothers Aboo Tasneem and Moosaa, it becomes clear that there is more to it than meets the eye. As the saying goes, حسن السؤال نصف الجواب
"Asking the question in a good way is half of the answer."
The thing you mentioned about the spray sounds like a very good solution too. There may just be hope for our feline friends after all. If any cats read this I'm sure they're giving a sigh of relief and cheering for Dawud and Moosaa now (hahahaa). I'll ask Shaikh Ahmad again when I call him Tuesday. Though I haven't had a cat living in a home with me since I was 4 years old, I'm still interested to hear what the Shaikh will reply to all of this.
Baarakallaahu feekum jamee'an
was-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaah
Aqeel
قال الشيخ ابن باز الطائفة المنصورة هي الفرقة الناجية هما واحدة هم أهل السنة و الجماعة و هم السلفيون
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| aboo.shaahir
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Member
Posts: 133
Joined: Sep 2002
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Assalaamu alaikum,
barakallaahu feekum ya Aba Tasneem! I need to get my hands on some of that spray, because I've tried buying my cat a scratching post and clipping her claws, but I couldn't pay her with a lifetime supply of IAMS cat food to stop scratching my sofas!
Aboo Shaahir as-Salafee
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| aqeel.walker
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Member
Posts: 97
Joined: Oct 2002
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hahahaaa, I feel for you yaa Abaa Shaahir. Maybe you could get a Sofa shaped like an agry pit bull or something. Just kidding.
akhuk Aqeel
was-salaamu 'alaykum
قال الشيخ ابن باز الطائفة المنصورة هي الفرقة الناجية هما واحدة هم أهل السنة و الجماعة و هم السلفيون
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| umm.abdulmalik
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Member
Posts: 58
Joined: Oct 2002
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As Salaamu Alaikum Wa Rahamtullah!
Jazak Allahu Khyran Katheeran Aqeel and for all of the other Brothers input into this matter.
However, I would like to point out that I have had cats all of my life. I currently have 4 cats (2 from jahaliyah that are declawed and 2 recent cats that are not). The 2 that are declawed are great defenders when they need to be with their hind claws (because normally you only delcaw the front paws) and teeth. They still have that clawing/stretching motion thing going on, as if they were clawing at something or marking thier territory. When they fight or play with they younger cats, they roll on thier backs and fight with their hind claws or use thier front claws sorta like they are boxing (and they jab very hard too!).
If you've ever been bitten by a cat, It is a bad bit and a declawed cat bite is worst. So, the point that I am trying to make is that a declawed cat can protect herself and survive outside, if she should ever get out.
Al Hamdulillah, I don't have furniture so that's not a concern.
Maybe my older cats could teach my younger cats the ropes, so that they don't get us evicted. Because they are killing the carpet in this apartment! Sprays don't help and neither does a scratching post.
Barak Allahu Feekum!
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| Moosaa
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Member
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sep 2002
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i'm sorry, but did you say that you declawed your cat's teeth?! What does that entail?!
Thank you for the good first hand insight sister. But - check this out:
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Declawing
Declawing is a surgical procedure that permanently removes your cat's claws. This operation is considered inhumane in the UK where it is also outlawed. The operation is legal in the United States, but a growing number of veterinarians are urging cats owners to consider other alternatives.
The Surgical Procedure
The actual procedure of declawing is referred to as "onychectomy." This surgery is an amputation of the claw at the end toe bone joint. The procedure removes the entire nail in such a way that no regrowth occurs. While this operation does stop the damage done by a scratching cat, many individuals feel that it should be done only as a last resort when all other options have failed.
Some considerations regarding declawing:
? Cats exhibit pain immediately after surgery.
? Some cats feel chronic pain after declawing.
? Bleeding & infections may occur.
? Cats lose an important defense mechanism.
? Most cats can be trained to stop scratching.
The declawing of all four feet is seldom justified. Discuss options with your veterinarian.
If your cat has outside access, declawing is not a good option to consider. Not only does your cat lose its ability to defend itself, but its ability to climb trees and escape from dogs and other predators is also affected.
Other Options
Declawing is not the only option available to cat owners who wish to preserve their furniture. One of the following should also work:
? Train your cat to use a scratching post. Some cats will even use a simple wooden board.
? Ask your veterinarian about removable nail coverings for your cat.
? Apply 2-sided tape to the areas where the cat scratches.
? Regularly trim your cat's nails.
Our veterinarian's advice is to avoid surgery if at all possible. With a little training, most cats will respect your furnishings and restrict their clawing to proper locations, like a scratching post.
Why Cats Claw
Cats exhibit clawing for a number of reasons. Sharpening and maintenance of the claws is the obvious function.
When clawing, cats also deposit chemical markers, or pheromones, from their pads in order to communicate their territorial ownership. Most declawed cats will continue to display this scratching behavior.
Source: http://www.care-for-my-cat.com/html/declaw.html
End quote.
If you consider this:
? Cats exhibit pain immediately after surgery.
? Some cats feel chronic pain after declawing.
? Bleeding & infections may occur.
? Cats lose an important defense mechanism.
in light of Shaykh Ahmad's answer, then it is to be avoided according to the shaykh himself.
***
Also...
1 - "Declawing is an inhumane, unnecessary procedure that has many alternatives. It is never in the cat's best interest. With declawing, we are interfering with a species' nature because of our own whims, mis-conceptions, misinformation, and sometimes, laziness." Neil Wolff, D.V.M.
2 - Dr. Nicholas Dodman, author of The cat Who Cried for Help, and director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine has the following to say about the procedure: "Declawing fits the dictionary definition of mutilation to a tee. Words such as deform, disfigure, disjoint and dismember all apply to this surgery?in veterinary medicine, the clinical procedure serves as a model of severe pain for the testing of analgesic drugs."
3 - Declawing is actually multiple amputations comparable to the removal of human fingertips at the first knuckle. Sensory and motor nerves are cut, damaged, and destroyed. Recovery from the surgery is a slow and painful process. This procedure can hamper the sensations and enjoyment involved in walking, running, springing, climbing, and stretching.
4 - While declawing is a popular and lucrative practice in the United States, it is not practiced in European countries. It is, in fact, against the law, in many countries including England, Germany, and Switzerland.
5 - Cat Owners who elect to have their paws declawed generally do so with the belief that they will never have to deal with fabric damage due to destructive scratching problems. However, paw sensitivity resulting from the declaw operation may result in litterbox avoidance and urine-soaked furnishings or carpeting.
6 - Without its #1 defense system many declawed cats resort to nipping or biting with very little warning. They often use oral means to express their insecurity and this may also result in destructive chewing problems.
7 - Cats, like people, react differently to physical handicaps. Some appear to be unaffected and others become nervous and defensive. When a dramatic temperament or behavior change occurs, the cat owner often decides to take the cat to a pound or shelter or have it euthanized by a veterinarian.
from: http://www.catsinternational.org/9_1.html
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سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك
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| Moosaa
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Member
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sep 2002
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I'm not finished yet!
Cats Need Claws
Declawing is much more drastic than the name implies. Claws are one of a cat's most distinctive and valuable assets. They're also quite magnifcent when you look at them closely. All cats use their claws practically every day of their life. Practically every waking hour, in fact. Cats use their claws for scratching, climbing, balance, defense, playing, kneading, and even self-expression. Claws are amazingly engineered and well-crafted tools and cats know how to work them with finesse. From a cat's point of view, claws are not optional. Claws are an integral part of a cat's "catness." No cat wants to be declawed.
Declawing is Harsh
Declawing not only removes all ten front claws, it also removes part of the paw itself. What an extreme penalty to pay for merely engaging in natural and beneficial scratching behavior. Cats walk on their paws, they need the whole paw, they're not born with "extra" paw that can be cut off.
The U.S. and Canada are the "Odd Men Out"
The U.S. and Canada are the only countries where declawing is commonplace. In many countries declawing is illegal or is considered inhumane, and you would be hard-pressed to find a veterinarian who would agree to do the operation. In the U.S., it's quite easy to declaw preemptively, i.e., even in the absence of any scratching problem. We've turned medically unnecessary amputation, done for the convenience of the human, into something routine. But it's not fair to pin all the blame on veterinarians who declaw. If nobody requests that their cat be declawed, the practice will die out in a few years.
from: http://www.de-clawing.com/
End quote.
***
And for a picture of the huge chunks of bone that are removed in such a surgery:
go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BAKKAHnet/
and then go to PHOTOS (its the last picture)
but you have to be a member! But joining is fast and easy! (so what if its a plug)
***
And last but not least CAT LOVERS... a message from the Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights:
"AVAR is opposed to cosmetic surgeries and to those performed to correct 'vices.' Declawing generally is unacceptable because the suffering and disfigurement it causes is not offset by any benefits to the cat. Declawing is done strictly to provide convenience for people.
Some veterinarians have argued that some people would have their cats killed if declawing was not an option. We should not, however, allow ourselves to taken 'emotional hostage' like this. If a person really would kill her or his cat in this case, it is reasonable to question the suitability of that person as a feline guardian, especially when there are millions of non-declawed cats living in harmony with people.
The AVAR believes that people who desire cats as companions should endeavor to learn about feline behavior prior to adopting a cat. If certain behavioral traits are unacceptable, then the desire for a cat should be reconsidered.
For people who already have cats, undesirable behavior with respect to claws should be modified by correcting deficiencies in the cat's environment or by other options such as nail clipping. Only in extreme circumstances should surgical measures such as declawing or tendon cutting be considered. What those circumstances might be are beyond the scope of this brochure, but it must be emphasized that these should be considered only a last resort after having tried all other options for resolution and only if the person will not then accept the cat on her or his terms.
The AVAR encourages veterinarians to adopt a policy which mandates that declawing or other surgery is extreme and should only be done as a last resort."
and they have also stated:
" Surgical Claw Removal ... An Extreme Solution
Scratching is a natural behavior for cats. This removes the dead husks from their claws, marks territory, both visually and with scent glands in their paws, and stretches their muscles. Unfortunately, what is natural behavior for a cat often is considered misbehavior by a cat's human guardian, especially when furniture or other household objects are damaged in the process.
The sensible and humane solution to undesirable scratching is to modify the cat's conduct by making changes in the environment. Many guardians, however, choose to modify their cats by having the cat's claws removed. Usually, the front claws are the only ones cut off, but some guardians also have the back claws removed.
A Painful Surgery
Surgical claw removal or declawing is called onychectomy. By any name, it is an extreme measure in which the entire last part of the ten front toes are amputated. A graphic comparison in human terms would be the cutting off of a person's finger at the last joint.
General anesthesia is used for this surgery, which always has a certain degree of risk of disability or death associated with it. Because declawing provides no medical benefits to cats, even slight risk can be considered unacceptable. In addition, the recovery from declawing can be painful and lengthy and may involve postoperative complications such as infections, hemorrhage, and nail regrowth. The latter may subject the cat to additional surgery.
A less invasive procedure, called tenotomy or deep digital flexor tendonectomy, sometimes is done. In this procedure, the tendons controlling the claws are severed without removing the claws. Although postoperative problems are lessened by this procedure, the risks associated with general anesthesia and the ethical question of performing surgery which does not benefit the patient still apply.
Physical and Psychological Effects
Declawing robs a cat of an integral means of movement and defense. Because they cannot defend themselves adequately against attacks by other animals, declawed cats who are allowed outdoors may be at increased risk of injury or death. Moreover, it is unknown whether declawing causes some degree of privation with respect to satisfying the instinctive impulses to climb, chase, exercise, and to mark territory by scratching.
Some declawed cats behave as they did before they were declawed, but others undergo a profound personality change. They may become extremely timid or unusually aggressive. Whether such problems develop from the trauma of surgery or the absence of claws is a matter of speculation.
Philosophic Concerns
Anesthesia and postoperative analgesics may minimize the pain and discomfort experienced by cats who are declawed. It may also be that there are no long term psychological effects, if this could be assessed adequately. But, these are not the only issues and may not even be the most important issues. A major concern that the AVAR has about declawing is the attitude that is evident in this situation. The cat is treated as if he or she is an inanimate object who can be modified, even to the point of surgical mutilation, to suit a person's perception of what a cat should be. It would seem more ethical and humane to accept that claws and scratching are inherent feline attributes, and to adjust one's life accordingly if a cat is desired as a companion. If this is unacceptable, then perhaps a different companion would be in order. "
from: http://www.avar.org/avar_cat_declawing.html
***
See also...
http://www.homevet.com/petcare/declaw.html
I hope that this information is helpful in posing the question without leaving out vital information.
And Allaah knows best.
Your brother
Moosaa
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سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك
This message was edited by Moosaa on 11-1-02 @ 11:45 AM
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| aboo.shaahir
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Member
Posts: 133
Joined: Sep 2002
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Assalaamu alaikum,
I too was thinking of declawing my cat because I was in ignorance about the procedure of declawing. But while I was in the process of getting a second cat (a male tabby, because my female cat was in some serious heat), I went to a animal shelter to 'adopt' one. The lady there asked me all kinds of questions (a regular procedure so that they won't be giving away a cat that will end up being mistreated, abandoned or anything of that nature)and she seemed very please with my answers...but then she asked "Will you be declawing your cat?" and ignorant old me said "Yes!". Brothers and sisters in al-Islaam, the woman had a look on her face as if she was going under her desk to grab a 357 Magnum and pop me with it! She was like "WE ARE AGAINST DECLAWING! WE THINK IT'S INHUMANE! IF A DOG ATE YOUR SLIPPERS, WOULD YOU REMOVE ITS TEETH? DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY DO WHEN THEY DECLAW A CAT?" I was like "No can you please explain?" So she gave me some panthelets and that anti-declawing website akhee Moosa had posted. Then she told me it was the equivilant to a human getting from the tip of his finger to the first joint removed. So after looking at my fingers for a minute I decided that getting a second cat ain't that serious and my female will just have to do without male companionship!
Aboo Shaahir as-Salafee
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| Moosaa
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Member
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sep 2002
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just to sort of nail it in some more...
Even the kuffaar who are inhumane themselves call DECLAWING inhumane and many countries have made this surgery illegal as mentioned!
********************
سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك
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| umm.abdulmalik
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Member
Posts: 58
Joined: Oct 2002
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As Salaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah!
Ok, ok, ok!!! Got it!!! I should have been the one doing the research, since I am the one with the cats! Shame on me!
Jazak Allahu Khyran for your RESEARCH Moosa! Good lookin' out!
Barak Allahu Feekum!
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| mohammad.amriki
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Member
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Joined: Sep 2002
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Asallamu 'alaykum.
I found using LexusNexus academic journal database:
Copyright 2002 Ventura County Star
Ventura County Star August 15, 2002 Thursday
A cat's claw is the anatomic equal of the last bone or digit of the human finger or toe. Therefore, declawing is the equivalent to amputating the first digit of a person's finger or toe.
A cat that has been declawed is completely defenseless against other animals.
Declawed cats must never be allowed outdoors where they are vulnerable to attacks by dogs and cats.
Veterinarian Kimberly Harrison refuses to perform declaw procedures.
She states that "behavioral problems frequently haunt declawed cats. By far the commonest thing we see is cats not using the litter box. When cats have stress beyond what they can take, it often shows up as a litter box problem and declawing makes them stress intolerant, in general, for the rest of their lives."
(NOTE: If they cannot use the litter box, they have to go OUTSIDE, Where they can easily be attacked!)
Dr. Harrison gets three to 12 calls a day about littler box problems in cats and, after ruling out medical problems, 90 percent of the cats with litter box aversion are declawed cats.
Many also suffer from complications after declawing surgery.
Of the 121 cats whose progress was followed after surgery, 20 percent had continued complications, such as infection, bone protrusion into the pad of the paw, and prolonged intermittent lameness and abnormal stance (standing posture).
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24-10-2002 @ 12:00 AM
