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Topic: USING THE LONG STICK
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 abdul.basir
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Abu Mujaahid Abdul Basir ibn G. Rose
(Africa)
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Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Sep 2002
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As Salaamu alaikum wa Rahamtullah;
Does any of the brothers or sisters know of the validity of leaning on a long stick while on the minbar giving the jumuah khutba? If so, where can I find that hadith?
As Salaamu alaikum;
ABdul BAsir al-Yardi
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| umm.aboo.yahyaa
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Umm aboo yahya Amatullah bint Rupee
(b/ham, UK)
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Member
Posts: 82
Joined: Dec 2002
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wa alaykumus salaam,
i found this, you might need to double check.
Shaikh Naser ul-Dean Al Albani (RH) wrote a series of books called "Silslat Al Ahadith Addaeefa" the series of weak narrations. These four volume books contain some 2000 weak Hadith. Every Hadith's weakness is explained in details. When one goes through, he will be amazed and astonished to realise that we unwittingly use so many weak narrations in the past to support an argument or a wrong practice.
" He use to stand on the mimbar leaning on a stick while giving the Khutbah." Daif No.964
umm aboo yahyaa
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| AbuBokorAs-Somali
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Abu Bakr As-Somali SBIIC
(cardiff,UK)
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Member
Posts: 68
Joined: Apr 2003
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barakallaahu feekum
this is very good, knowledge we learned today, I always thought this ahadith was saheed but not daeef
This message was edited by AbuBokorAs-Somali on 5-30-04 @ 11:45 AM
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| AbuBokorAs-Somali
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Abu Bakr As-Somali SBIIC
(cardiff,UK)
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Member
Posts: 68
Joined: Apr 2003
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asalamu alaykum
after consulting with Hasan as-somali about the hadith above, the brother said to me that the not all the ahadith related to this topic are weak. And insha allah he will be commenting this hadith soon.
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| HassanAs-Somali
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unspecified unspecified
(unspecified)
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Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Sep 2002
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| عن الحكم بن حزن الكلفي قال وفدت إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم سابع سبعة أو تاسع تسعة فدخلنا عليه فقلنا يا رسول الله زرناك فادع الله لنا بخير فأمر بنا أو أمر لنا بشيء من التمر والشأن إذ ذاك دون فأقمنا بها أياما شهدنا فيها الجمعة مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقام متوكئا على عصا أو قوس فحمد الله وأثنى عليه كلمات خفيفات طيبات مباركات ثم قال أيها الناس إنكم لن تطيقوا أو لن تفعلوا كل ما أمرتم به ولكن سددوا وأبشروا . ( حسن ) . |
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"فقام متوكئا على عصا"
"He (The Prophet) stood up and he was leaning upon a stick."
Shaykh Albaani (رحمه الله) declares this Hadeeth hasan (sound), in Saheeh Sunan Abi Dawood 4/261. |
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| Shaykhunaa Yahya Al-Hajoori (حفظه الله) mentioned in the beneficial book Ahkaamul Jum'ah pg 180 that the narrations that establish that it is from the sunnah for the Khateeb to lean upon a stick whilst standing during the khutbah are Saheeh ligayrihi (authentic due to the hasan (sound) hadeeth mentioned above and other slightly weak supporting narrations). |
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وقال شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية:
لا عيب على من أظهر مذهب السلف وانتسب إليه واعتزى إليه بل يجب قبول ذلك منه بالاتفاق فإن مذهب السلف لا يكون إلا حقا
مجموع الفتاوى 4/ 149
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| Moosaa
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Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson
(Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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Member
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Jazaakum Allaahu khayran Abaa 'Abdillaah.
Also, Shaykh Al-Albaanee mentioned that Ibn Hajr also called it hasan, and mentioned that both Ibn Khuzaymah and Ibn as-Sakan(*) authenticated it as well.
It is also worth mentioning that al-'Atheem Abaadee said in his explanation of the hadeeth ('Awn al-Ma'bood, 3/313, Daar al-Kutub al-'Ilmiyyah):
والحديث فيه مشروعية الاعتماد على سيف أو عصا أو قوس حال الخطبة.
قيل: والحكمة في ذلك الاشتغال عن العبث.
"ِAnd the hadeeth has in it (proof for) the legislated nature of leaning on a sword, a stick, or a bow during the khutbah. It has been said: And the wisdom in that is to keep (the khateeb) away from fiddling (with things)."
And Allaah knows best.
(*) al-Haafith Aboo 'Alee Sa'eed ibn 'Uthmaan, d.353, he had a number of books that have not been printed, like Ma'rifah as-Sahaabah (may also be called Mu'jam as-Sahaabah) and his Saheeh (Saheeh Ibn as-Sakan) that was referred to by al-Mubaarakfooree in his introduction to Tuhfatul-Ahwathee.
Moosaa ibn John Richardson
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سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك
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| Moosaa
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Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson
(Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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It is also important to note that some of the scholars, like Ibn al-Qayyim in Zaad al-Ma'aad, have specified this action of leaning on the stick to the time before the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) began to use the minbar. This was actually the topic of Al-Albaanee's discussion in Silsilah al-Ahaadeeth adh-Dha'eefah (#964), that the wordings that mention leaning on a stick while he was upon the minbar are not only unauthentic, but have no basis, and the shaykh was not claiming that the hadeeths about leaning on a stick in general are weak. His conclusion was that Ibn al-Qayyim's assertion was correct, that this was something practiced when the khutbah was given on the ground, not upon the minbar, like Jumu'ah before the minbar was introduced and for the 'Eed prayer and its likes, and Allaah knows best.
Al-Albaanee quoted Ibn al-Qayyim's statement (Zaad, 1/166): "And he did not used to have in his hand a sword or anything else (for the khutbah), rather he would lean on a stick. And it has not been authentically related that he used to lean on a sword. And as for what some of the ignorant ones think, that he used to always lean on a sword, and that this is a sign that the Religion has been established by way of the sword, then this is from the excessiveness of their ignorance, as it has not been authentically established, after the use of the minbar, that he used to ascend it with a sword, a bow, nor other than them. Nor (has it been authentically established) that he used to have a sword in his hand ever (during the khutbah), rather he only used to lean on a stick or a bow."
In shaa' Allaah, consider this to be more correct than what al-'Atheem Abaadee said about the legislated nature of leaning on a sword specifically, and Allaah knows best.
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| Abu.AbdilHameed
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Abu AbdilHameed Rajaey ibn AbdilHameed
(Rochester, NY, USA)
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Posts: 21
Joined: Apr 2003
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Assalaamu'alaikum warahmatullah,
So does this mean that the Sunnah of leaning
on a stick has been abrogated since the
introduction of the use of the minbar?
Assalaamu'alikum
Rajaey ibn AbdilHameed ibn Qaasid al Phalastinee
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| Abu.AbdilHameed
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Abu AbdilHameed Rajaey ibn AbdilHameed
(Rochester, NY, USA)
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Member
Posts: 21
Joined: Apr 2003
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Assalaamu'alaikum warahmatullah,
So does this mean that the Sunnah of leaning
on a stick has been abrogated since the
introduction of the use of the minbar?
Assalaamu'alikum
Rajaey ibn AbdilHameed ibn Qaasid al Phalastinee
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| HassanAs-Somali
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unspecified unspecified
(unspecified)
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Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Sep 2002
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An-Nawawi mentioned in Al-Majmoo'(4/399):
"That it is recommended for the Khateeb to lean upon a stick or a bow (due to the (hadeeth) mentioned earlier reported by Al-Hakm ibn Hazn). Al-Qaadi Husayn and Al-Bagawi stated that it is preferred that he hold (the stick or bow) in his right hand, but the majority of scholars did not mention which hand should be used. If he does not find one to hold then he should place his right hand upon his left, or leave them by his side and should not move his hands or fiddle with either one of them."
This was mentioned by Ibn Qudaamah in Al-Mughni (2/309). And he used the hadeeth of Al-Hakm ibn Hazn as a proof.
Likewise Ash-Shawkaani in Naylul Awtaar.
Taken from Ahkaamul Jum'ah pg 180-181.
Shaykh Yahya mentions:
There is no proof to support the opinion of leaning upon a sword, no authentic hadeeth or athar, rather that which is recommended for the khateeb is to lean upon a stick.... |
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Ahsanta Ya Moosa.
وقال شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية:
لا عيب على من أظهر مذهب السلف وانتسب إليه واعتزى إليه بل يجب قبول ذلك منه بالاتفاق فإن مذهب السلف لا يكون إلا حقا
مجموع الفتاوى 4/ 149
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| abdul.basir
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Abu Mujaahid Abdul Basir ibn G. Rose
(Africa)
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Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Sep 2002
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As Salaamu alaikum;
Al-Hamdulillaah. I would like to thank the brothers and sister(s) who contributed to clarifying this matter. From the proofs provided, it is correct to say that the use of the khateeb using the stick is established in the sunnah but there is nothing supporting the use of said stick while on the minbar. This is the understanding that I have gained. May Almighty Allaah help us to be among those revive the sunnah and to be a beacon of light in a time of darkness. Ameen
As Salaamu alaikum
Abdul Basir al-Yardi
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| amr.basheer
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aboo ubaidah amr bin basheer
(London and Unaizah)
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Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Oct 2002
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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
الحمد لله والصلاة السلام على رسول الله وعلى آله وصحبه ومن اتبع هداه
أما بعد:
yes, akhi abd ul-baseer it seems that it is the stronger opinion. I just wanted to add something to what the nobles brothers moosa and hasan wrote.
This ruling is not understood from shaikh yahyaa. shaikh yahyaa not only comments on the hadeeth but starts the chapter on this topic [p.180] with the heading ?it is from the sunnah that the khateeb during his khutbah stands and leans on a stick.?
It is not clear from him as he doesn?t mention the minbar. he does quote ibn al-qayyim?s statement but he doesn?t comment on it, except that it seems he is bringing it as a proof just to support the chapter heading. Perhaps someone at daar ul-hadeeth can ask him for further comment.
These are the narrations to do with this topic;
1] ?we witnessed al-jumuah with the messenger of Allaah, sallallaahu alayhi was salam, and he stood leaning on his stick?
related by al-hakam bin hazn al-kulaffi with aboo daawood, ahmad, ibn khuzaimah and al-baihaqee.
Saheeh lidhaatihi.
2] ?he, sallallaahu alayhi was salam, used to do the khutbah with a stick in his hand.
related by abdullaah bin az-zubayr with ibn sad in his ?tabaqaat? and al-bazzaar.
Hadeeth daeef, but due to the narrators being reliable and one of the narrators being used for support only [that?s why it is daeef], then the hadeeth is raised to hasan lighayrihi as it supported by the previous hadeeth.
3] ?then he did the khutbah to the men whilst he was leaning on a stick?[eid khutbah]
related by jaabir with ahmad. This wording in the hadeeth is shaadh [it conflicts with more authentic narrations like in al-bukhaaree and muslim where it says he was leaning on bilaal.]
4]..and he pointed with his stick on the minabr?
related by faatimah bint qays with muslim.
These words are shaadh. [they are not narrated in all the other routes of this hadeeth]
5] mursal [disconnected third level and beyond] narration of az-zuhree with aboo daawood in ?al-maraaseel?. Daeef.
6] mursal narration of ataa with abd ur-razzaaq in his musannaf. Daeef.
7] mursal narration of saeed bin al-musayab with abd ur-razzaaq in his musannaf. Daeef jiddan.
8] hadeeth of al-baraa bin aazib with with ibn abee shaybah in his musannaf. Daeef.
9] hadeeth of khaalid bin al-aduwaani with ahmad. Daeef.
10] hadeeth of sad al-qaradh with ibn maajah. Daeef jiddan.
11] hadeeth of abdullaah bin abbaas with abu al-shaikh al-asbahaani in ?akhlaaq an-nabi?. Daeef jiddan.
12] hadeeth of alee bin abee taalib with ibn adi in ?al-kaamil?. Mawdou [fabricated].
These are the twelve narrations regarding the stick of the khateeb but only two are established. So it is an established sunnah for the khateeb, as shaikh Muhammad bin abd ul-wahaab al-wasaabi [also from yemen] says in his book ?tufat ul-areeb?[and the above points were summarised from his book]; ?there is no difference between the minbar or other than that, as this distinguishing is not mentioned in the first two hadeeth and if you say that there is a difference then it is upon you to bring the evidence.?
Shaikh naasir-ud-deen, rahimullaah, refutes this point historically proving that there was a type of abrogation when the minbar was introduced and these established narrations were about the time before it. See his excellent discussion on the biography of al-hakam, the narrator of the first hadeeth, where he disproves the idea he embraced islaam after the minbar was made.
As for the third narration, even if the wording was saheeh, [I?m depending on shaikh al-wasaabee?s ruling that it is shaadh] it refers to eid and he, sallallaahu alayhi was salam, did not use a minbar for the eid khutbah.
This view is also supported by shaikh khayr ud-deen al-waanili in ?al-masjid fi al-islaam? and the alaamah of shaam, al-qaasimee, rahimullaah, said in ?islaah al-masaajid? that he took a stick before the minbar was made and the sword was used during military expeditions.
Allaah knows best.
Aboo ubaidah.
[this discussion should be in the fiqh section and the admin of this site have told us to be careful when selecting headings]
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28-05-2004 @ 3:56 PM
28-05-2004 @ 4:47 PM
04-06-2004 @ 11:25 AM