| Posted By |
Topic: Halal mortage?
|
|
 roshdy.majdoub
|
|
Member
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 2002
|
Assalaamu'alaykum,
Could on of the students of knowledge urgently ask one of the mashayakh about this particualr way of financing a mortgage? Below are 2 links, one with a description of the plan, and one with the application form...
[admin: refer to this link:
http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=10&Topic=2488 ]
Wasalaamu'alaykum.....
|
|
| Daud.Chest
|
|
Member
Posts: 126
Joined: Apr 2003
|
Asalaamu Ailaykum,
Akhi, I mistakenly started a new link rather than replying to your question. I'm not a student of knowledge, but myself and a sister Umm Layla (may Allaah reward her) gave some naseehah by raising some questions in our posts that you may benefit from before you jump into this deal. Go to the link "Is it really halal".
Barakallaahu Feekum,
Daud
|
|
| roshdy.majdoub
|
|
Member
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 2002
|
Assalaamu'alaykum,
JazakAllaahulkhayr for pointing me to the link. I have seen that fatwa already, however the links i posted(which were removed), are to a different way of doing things. Instead of renting or leasing while repaying this is supposedly Murabaha , profit making.:
"The key features of Murabaha are described below.
Key features:-
Suitable for the purchase of a house or flat
Property registered in your name or names
Maybe fully paid at anytime
Payments are fixed for the entire payment term
Maximum payment term is 15 years
How it works
You identify the property you wish to buy and agree the purchase price with the seller of the property in the normal way.
You approach us for assistance and complete an application form (see section ?do I qualify?).
If we are able to help, the bank will buy the property, after solicitors confirmed that everything is in order, and immediately sell it to you at a higher price.
The higher price is calculated depending on the value of the property, the number of years you wish to pay us over and the amount of your first payment (see ?payment calculator? for an indication of the higher price).
When purchased, the property is registered in your name and the sale between yourself and the bank is recorded in the Murabaha Contract.
Your first payment to the bank is made on the day of completion and is your initial contribution. Normally a minimum of 20% of the purchase price,
One month after completion your regular monthly payments will commence. These will be claimed by Direct Debit automatically from you normal bank account. "
The second of the 2 links i posted up had a copy of the application form that needed to be filled out. I spoke to someone at the bank and he said it had carefully been worded so as not to contractually oblige you to buy the propery before they have bought it. However it also has in it the need to set up a bank account before purchase as a sign of good will. This is why i wanted someone to read it out to one of the shuyookh to see if this was acceptable and fitted in to the criteria. I can send the application form and more information to anyone who wishes to see it if they PM me.
Wa salaamu'alaykum...
|
|
| Daud.Chest
|
|
Member
Posts: 126
Joined: Apr 2003
|
Asalaamu Ailaykum, Akhi:
I don't want to beat a dead horse because the administrators'deleted the link, so this discourse may not be suitable for this web site. Akhi, me and the sister are trying warn you that there may be hidden ribaa the Muslims unknowingly enter into. The sales pitch may sound like it's ok, however I know for a fact that kuffar banks don't just by houses for people, and allow them to pay it off in 15+ years, and not charge interest on it because the default risk is too high. Any bank officer that allows that will be fired!!! Kuffar banks make their $$$ from lending $$$ and charging ribaa, charging fees for financial services, and investments! I'm no expert so I could be wrong, but I do have an above average knowledge of financial/business analysis and economics, and I can't see how this business model can be successful. If you wish, I can consult a Phd. in Finance and get his insight. Be careful.
Barakallaahu Feekum
Daud
|
|
| roshdy.majdoub
|
|
Member
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 2002
|
Wa 'alaykum salaam,
JazakAllaahulkhayr, for the naseeha.however this offer is not from a Kaafir bank but from "Ahli United Bank ", which has it's headquarters in Bahrain.
Since this is not like the HSBC offer whereby you lease or rent, at the same time as buying, and they don't contractually oblige you to buy the property before they own it, i would like one of Shuyookh to have a look at it and the application form.
By all means let the PHD student have a look do you want more details, and the apllication form(its in pdf format) Akhee?
Wa salaamu'alaykum...
|
|
| roshdy.majdoub
|
|
Member
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 2002
|
........
This message was edited by roshdy.majdoub on 1-30-04 @ 11:46 AM
|
|
| roshdy.majdoub
|
|
Member
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 2002
|
Apologies for the repeats......
This message was edited by roshdy.majdoub on 1-30-04 @ 11:47 AM
|
|
| Daud.Chest
|
|
Member
Posts: 126
Joined: Apr 2003
|
Asalaamu Ailaykum, Akhi,
Volume 9, Book 92, Number 422: Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a lizard, you would follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Who else?"
Akhi, The Ahli United Bank does indeed engage in haraam transactions involving ribaa. I looked at their financial statements they posted as pdf files on their website!!!!!!!! Clink on the link "Financial Statements", then scroll down and then click on the link "Part 5, Auditors Report". Below is what I've found. These accounts are only the obvious ones, that clearly denote their engaging in haraam transactions. ***Notes: all values are as of Dec. 31. 2002 & all values are in U.S. dollars...
1. On the balance sheet, on page 38, under their "Liabilities" subheading it has an entry entitled "Floating rate notes and other term debt". These are types of bonds which are interest bearing loans and because they are under the heading liabilities they are paying in the amount of $233,083,000. They have notes (see the #9) that explain this account in further detail if you turn to page 51. It says at the bottom of the category, "Floating rate notes and other term debt are unsecured debt are unsecured with interest payable semi-annually".
***NOTE: If you look above at the account called "Due to banks & other financial institutions", it amounts to almost $1.4 billion in liabilities do to other banks. If I had the real balance sheet, I could show you that they are paying interst on these as well.
2. On page 38, of the income statement, at the top it lists its operating income. The first category lists interest income. This how they, as a kuffar imitating bank, earn their money. It is money they received from the ribaa they charged people they loaned money, and the haraam money they earned is $211,672,000 before expenses!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The next sub-heading lists the net interest & other income (they do not disclose its sources)
3. On the statement of cashflows, at the bottom of page 48, it lists the investing activities. The account "Redemption of treasury bills over three months" are U.S. treasury bills, which is a short-term, interest earning loan, to the U.S. government. This is a place to park $$$ in the short-term to earn interest by investing in U.S. government bonds (haraam loan) which are acknowledged as the safest of all fixed-asset investments.
4. On page 46, in the section entitled "Notes to the Consolidated Financial Statements", section 3 under the heading "Significant Accounting Policies"; it lists their accounting policies under the subheading towards the bottom of the page for "Derivatives". These are risk managment/hedging tools that are actually "bets" on the movement of things such as interest rates, exchange rates, the GDP of economies...practically anything they can bet on. Years ago, some dude in London brought down one of the oldest banks in Europe when he was betting or hedging that the Japanese Yen would fall--unfortunately for him it rose....he lost like $80 billion in one trade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5. On page 50 it lists investments in government "BONDS" in different places, all of which are interest bearing loans they made to governments outside of Bahrain. These interest earning, or ribaa investments earned them approximately $1,200,000,000 (that's billion with a "b")!!!!!!!!!!
I could have posted a LOT more but I think you get my point. I'm not putting myself forward as a student of knowledge, nor as a scholar. But, I do know finance and economics. Akhi, there is no way, these "halal" mortgage companies are buying houses for people without charging ribaa, whether it's hidden or apparent. They are nothing more than marketing schemes to get $$$ from the well-to-do Muslims who reside in the lands of the kuffar. As far as the Ahli United Bank is concerned, take the info I listed above to one of the Kibar Ulema, and ask them if it is permissable for you to do business with this bank.
Oh Allaah, please make the Muslims stop imitating the kuffar, Oh Allaah, please make the Muslims stop imitating the kuffar, Oh Allaah, please make the Muslims stop imitating the kuffar....Aameen!!!
Barakallaahu Feekum,
Daud Abdullaah As-Salafi
|
|
| roshdy.majdoub
|
|
Member
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 2002
|
Wa 'alaykum salaam,
Once again JazakAllaahulkhayr for the naseeha, however this is why i wanted someone to ask one of the Scholars. Do not all banks take part in those transactions you mentioned in your post? If so if you look at the link to the answer given by Shaykh Ahmad An-Najmee (hafidhahullah) on the other type of so called "Halaal" mortgage, he allowed for a person to buy from a bank as long as it conformed to certain pre conditions.
Wa salaamu'alaykum....
|
|
|
26-01-2004 @ 4:31 PM
